Cineversity

Hello,
I have a general understanding of how the aim and up vector constraints work in basic form when rigging from scratch.
But I have a character which was nicely rigged with the advanced biped character objects, changed some objects I had attached to some eye bones and possibly ended up with stuff moved about in the rig after having some animation on there.

Now, while I can reset some of the components to useful positions, like the eye bones locations, I have a problem moving the up vectors for the eye bones in this rig.
Is there something I can turn off to allow these to be moved about, or do I have to be in some other mode on the character tool ?

A decent set of character object debugging tutorials wouldn’t go amiss btw, lots of good tutorials on rigging with the default tools, but doesn’t seem to be much on here on getting out of problems.

cheers
Adam

Hi Adam,

You have a tutorial suggestion here, and a request for help. I guess the help part is more important, hence the Q&A forum.

I have send an upload link to your PM box (private messages Cineversity), otherwise I have not really an idea what you have done so far and how.
(Please only the parts in questions. E.g., no lights or context etc.)

All the best

Hi Adam,

Thanks for the file!

First of all, to reset a pose go to this link, and scroll down:
https://help.maxon.net/us/#OCHARACTERBASE-ID_OBJECTPROPERTIES

It is not to my personal understanding to “plant” objects inside of the “Character Object” set up. Yes it works, and I have attached a scene how I would place the eyes (here as Cones). If such a set up is needed, I wouldn’t drag the parts in it, via constrains would be the better way, to keep the scene organized.
In the submitted file, please compare the set up of your file with the attached file.

The simple idea to connect everything via weight allows to reset the pose as a whole and at once. If a part of the mesh is driven by the Skin object and other parts directly by the joints, this reset will probably not work. Another option is given while using the [full] Skin approach can be found in the option to have the Skin>Object>Coord>“set freely”. With the split version [weight/hierarchy] this is not possible and the joints have to stay always where the body-object [mesh] is.

Another reason to not populate the Character set-up for me is, that once it is in the hierarchy, detailed adjustments are not simple anymore, until you drag it out, adjust and drag it back in again.

As stated, this is my view to it, perhaps the support can share a different perspective to it.  http://www.maxon.net/en-us/support/how-can-we-help/

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Tutorials, yes the three part series about setting up the character had no eyes included, hence no tips there. I agree also that a series of typical problem solving strategies and frequently “traps” one might encounter would create a nice series.
Would you mind to copy your suggestion into the “Tutorial Suggestion”, perhaps even encourage other people to add common problems below in that same thread, to maybe get a nice and intense series? Thanks for doing that.

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Perhaps download the “QuickStart” [QS] manual from Maxon with the scene files here: http://www.maxon.net/en-us/support/downloads/
To get to the files, click on the “Update” field, there the QS and files are stored. The QS explains it on page 70, but not for the eye. So why I suggest it anyway …, because sometimes it helps to get a new model, set up things a little bit differently than with the problem file, and maybe gain some more realizations about. Especially here, while you don’t care so much about this 3rd party file, but you do care with your own, and to take that “care” out, and to bring you so in exploration mode. Sorry if that sounds too guided from my side. But even two decades+ of doing 3D, if something isn’t working for me, I start with something fresh and similar. This works for me, and you have asked for strategies ;o) This is one.
You might notice that the weighting of the eyes [QS: MaxonMan.c4d], will affect perhaps the head as well, that is the key work and idea to have suggested it in the first place.

Last but not least, in the binding list should be only meshes, no components, etc.

All the best

Hello,

Well I thought I had fixed some of it through deleting some of the animation frames I had put in, this had some frames in to rotate the head object around a bit but at some point seemed to have messed up the rig after going back to adjust mode. Reseting the pose didn’t solve any of this even with the reset to original rig using shift I think it was, as the default rig still seemed to have the neck and head bones out of alignment at this point.

I deleted the Eye components from the rig and started again, this time adding in the head object as a separate object within the main body mesh parent, outside of the character rig and setup a constraint for the head to follow the position and rotation of the head joint. This resulted in the head flipping 90deg, showing the axis of the head and neck joints were out. I’ve reset the axis using the joint align tool, but I’m still getting the head being pretty random in terms of rotation.
Messing about with the heads (mesh object parent) axis , trying to reset it to zero on the rotation in the objects space and world space just seems to ping it somewhere else.

Im not even sure having the head object outside of the bone structure will work with what I’m doing as it needs to go into Unity3d as a character, which may not retain the psr restraints driving the head and eyes. This worked with the character previously with the head inside the bone structure which was why I kind of stuck with that.

My character binding always displays those components even if I delete the whole list and drop in just the mesh. It shows the mesh initially in there but then all the components after pinging back to that tab.

My main issue is the character rig is with it being very random, as it has always been with cinema4d. If you do any kind of animation and go back to the rig to tweak something or add something, at some point it will ping and mess up, with no option but for you to re rig the whole thing. This is becoming a very personal gripe with me and Cinema4d and I know a lot of other artists in the industry that have similar gripes with the way C4d handles character rigs. Many whom chose to not use the character tool and opt for just a simple rig instead. I’d really like to make this work as I enjoy using the Cmotion system, but I feel I may move to another application soon after 15 years of using c4d and not getting anywhere with the character side.

I might add I just updated c4d to the latest patch the other night, which didn’t seem to help the character rig at all either, this may have been what pinged all the bones out even.

Hi Adam,

To reset the set up, I have shared a link to the manual, it is a simple click, click with shift key or cmd/ctrl, or a combination, to use the Reset Pose.
Here is it again for your convenience
First of all, to reset a pose go to this link, and scroll down:
https://help.maxon.net/us/#OCHARACTERBASE-ID_OBJECTPROPERTIES

As mentioned, all these steps might fail for the complete character, if the way it is animated is split.

Again, the components shouldn’t be in the Bind field.
Joints are not operated directly,  use the Controllers.
The weighting needs adjustments.
I would also suggest to scale the controllers, but that is more about convenience.

To go to Unity, please check out this tutorials, of course the series is the one you should do:
http://www.cineversity.com/vidplaytut/unity_game_development_with_cinema_4d_part_08
I think Rick Barrett shows here a lot of got advices to go to Unity, but then again, you have not mentioned at all so far what you need.
I have explored your model last night, and I do not get how far you move the arms, and how much they clip into each other. My best guess: that was a stress test.

If you need to go in any other way, set everything up, and do not move anything before you have key-framed everything, e.g., Controller. This should help you to get things back, if you have a clean set up.
For anything you like to “constrain” you can do that inside but, there are too many reasons to do so, e.g., export, or find them after changes, or just to keep things organized.
There are more tutorials about Unity of course.

In this case: My advice would be to leave the model out of your explorations and get really savvy with the Character Object first. How to set it up, how to animate, how to reset things along the way. The Skin and the mesh object are just not the first step if that is not clear. In the moment you really savvy with the parts, then I would go again with the skinning and such.

To your 15 years and now move to another application soon: If you like to do that, then do it. There are many options to download even a demo version. If you think there is something better for your use, please explore those options. I can only ask to stop those useless arguments, as I think that is not the level I like to work here, this feels not really pro to me. Yes, I know that feeling, but once you start with those expressions or go down that path saying those things, you have to follow up on your own arguments one day, but you might not like the results. Those stuff creates only burned bridges. So, my suggestion, check out all other options. If there is something that makes your life easier, we are the last people to stand in your way. My best wishes, of course.

In case you stay, please check out that series:
http://www.cineversity.com/vidplaylist/the_character_object/character_object_part_1
Please all three parts.
It is created by Bret Bays, he is certainly well known, you find his name on many newer Disney movies, e.g., Zootopia. He certainly knows his craft and art. :o)

I think the best idea is to use this option:
https://www.cineversity.com/vidplaytut/cineversity_1on1_training
or direct here
http://1on1.maxon3d.com/
Define what you need, and hopefully after an hour the workflow you like to have has been discussed.

The other way: Suggest a tutorial. :o) … as discussed above. Thanks for doing that.

Enjoy.

I have already tried the reset character, and it works for a few bits but somewhere down the line other parts got out of whack, the knee aims for instance didn’t reset and one ended up behind the knee. The only way to fix that was by moving it manually in the animation mode, but go back to the character rig in build or adjust modes and it will ping back to being behind the knee.

When I added a new version of my characters head to it the other day, the rig all just failed after going from the animation back to the rigging stage at some point. It may not have helped when I ran an update to c4d last night and it updated the character rig also.

Im not saying Im completely character rig savy, but I’ve already had this rig in unity working fine several days ago, already done 4 other games unity and own engines with characters using cinema4d even. I just find that unless you are a character rig scientist, the cinema4d tools are still not very savy for someone who simply wants to rig a character and animate.

Im going to re-rig with a completely new character rig, making sure I save all the initial positions and rotations in frame0 as a backup and see if I can get it working again.
I think I’m going to add the eyes without the default character rig’s eye preset this time and just add the bones myself, as I don’t want to animate those in cinema4, just script them in unity.

Im sorry if this appears a little off tone and really welcome your help btw, I’m just feeling a bit burnt out by all of this when I had a nice rig going and it all messed up at some point putting me back 2 days!

Hi Adam,

Watch Bret’s tutorials. Seriously. Especially as well these two, after all his other about Character Object:
https://www.cineversity.com/vidplaylist/character_rigging_techniques_siggraph_2015_rewind/siggraph_2015_rewind_bret_bays_weighting_workflows_for_cinema_4d_character
and
https://www.cineversity.com/vidplaylist/character_rigging_techniques_siggraph_2015_rewind/siggraph_2015_rewind_bret_bays_creating_a_character_rigging_pipeline

For Unity you have seen already these, if not, here is a link:
https://www.cineversity.com/vidplaytut/biped_rigging_for_games_part_01

The adjustment alone from the components is crucial. Your model is not perfect and often way out of the center of the object. The weighting of your set up needs attention, lots of parts are connected and shouldn’t, e.g. leg and skirt.

You’re not out of tone, not at all, I wanted to give you only my experience, where you move by mentioning “I quit and move on to …” stuff: This poisons your mind, not mine. If a new app is the solution, try it, no need to say it, it only hurts you. No negative feelings here about.

What we try here, is to find something that works for you. As usual, old stuff and techniques applied to new solutions might produce problems. The Character is super simple, compared to the set up one can create with it. There are limitations, as the weighting can be only as good as the initial set up is as well how the application tries to weight it, there are areas that can’t be automatic. Here the artist has to work manually.

Your reply doesn’t reflect on anything really I have suggested. Try without the mesh first. Have a 1on1 session, I guess that will help to find your “blind spots” toward the system and ease these out, as you wrote how many days you have invested. Given your scene file, it doesn’t reflect Bret’s suggestions. There is always time to learn. To try the failing forward method takes always more time.

I think I have said all I can for now. If you think the application has problems, and that is always a given option to keep in mind, then please check this with the support, as this is not supposed to be discussed here, by default.
http://www.maxon.net/en-us/support/how-can-we-help/

My best wishes

Well the good thing is I’ve discovered a couple of bits where I went wrong on the character rig.
Main one that probably messed it up along the way was I didn’t have all of the main controllers keyframed to a default pose on frame0, which I normally do by default :/
The second thing being I didn’t realise a few of the bits I wanted to do could be done with some of the rigs extra controller sliders.

I have just tested unity with a simple rig and it looks like the parent constraints work going into it, so that should help me keep all of the mesh objects in their own hierarchy, and also make it easier for me to add on some additional points on the character to add extra items afterwards

I watched through Bret’s tutorials and theres a couple of useful bits in there with the skinning process, one of the cv tools looks especially useful I’d actually gone through one of his previous tutorials I think a few weeks ago when I was starting this rig as bit of a refresher.

Would you suggest any tutorials on rigging a skirt? I had it weighted up with the legs just as to move it out of the way slightly. I was thinking a cloth objects I’ve used that method before in a fully baked animation, but I’m not sure how efficient that would export to unity without baking to point animation, which Im pretty certain Unity doesn’t import at the moment.

Thanks
Adam

This sounds all great, thanks for the update and feedback, Adam.

The skirt, there is of course this tutorial about a skirt:
https://www.cineversity.com/vidplaytut/animating_flabiana
But it is certainly not a simple, if you aim for these extreme movement I saw…
(R18 Cloth Priority!)

If you have concerns about PLA animations, please check the files that Rick Barrett has shared with his course. (Available at Part 1 and 4, as well in the last part)
So far I can see here, he uses a Jiggle Deformer, which could to a certain degree take away the “direct connectedness of the skirt to the legs.
I guess you went through them, but before you search the whole thread, here it is again:
https://www.cineversity.com/vidplaylist/unity_game_development_with_cinema_4d/unity_game_development_with_cinema_4d_part_01
I have no idea about your final use of Unity, so give it a try perhaps.

I think this seems to come more and more along, thanks to your exploration of the details and the tutorials here. Sounds good to me :o)

I think this clip is not longer needed, but it shows how much a wrongly set Component will “crash the mesh”, the reset is also shortly included. (one minute long)
https://www.amazon.com/clouddrive/share/MdiqjVra9fZGhvxYJ39OLjP5N3NnGPxPMZ8b7KJ9TIM?ref_=cd_ph_share_link_copy

My best wishes.