A new version of Cineversity has been launched. This legacy site and its tutorials will remain accessible for a limited transition period

Visit the New Cineversity
   
1 of 2
1
Curved Knife
Posted: 07 January 2016 07:45 AM   [ Ignore ]  
Total Posts:  11
Joined  2013-12-15

Hello,

first of all “Happy new year”:) I am looking for a proper way of hardsurface modeling and I hope you can help me. I am working on a hull of an complex engine which has a wavy surface. I need a way to cut this hull into separate parts like a battery Cover. Using the knife was a bad idea cause there is no way for me to cut precise and curvy lines in my mesh. So my next attempt was to use extruded spline with the bool tool. The result was (as expected) also awfull. So is there no way in c4d to make very fine construction lines and edges into the mesh with the knife or any other tool? Or is there a way to cut my mesh along a given spline? BTW: Displacement, bump or normal is no option cause I need access to the parts.

Thanks for all
Regards

Pixler

Profile
 
 
Posted: 07 January 2016 03:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]  
Administrator
Avatar
Total Posts:  12043
Joined  2011-03-04

Hi Pixler,

Happy New Year to you as well.

This is kind of a general question, and to answer this would take some time; Of course I like to guide you through this, but I like to focus on the specific task at hand.

If you could share something more detailed, so I can show you perhaps a way to do it, instead of pointing you into general directions.

A sketch or the Spline model, eventually with a screen shot and some information written in it.

Is that eventually for a 3D printer?

Cutting along a spline is certainly possible, as long as you use the spline a “snapping option” and the underlaying mesh supports the cuts. A cut is always a straight line between two edges [or points], and edges by itself are also always straight.

All the best

 Signature 

Dr. Sassi V. Sassmannshausen Ph.D.
Cinema 4D Mentor since 2004
Maxon Master Trainer, VES, DCS

Photography For C4D Artists: 200 Free Tutorials.
https://www.youtube.com/user/DrSassiLA/playlists

NEW:

NEW: Cineversity [CV4]

Profile
 
 
Posted: 08 January 2016 01:33 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]  
Administrator
Avatar
Total Posts:  12043
Joined  2011-03-04

P.S.: I have send you (via Cineversity Private Message “PM”) an upload link, just in case it is too large or can’t be shared in public. If possible, use the forum, thanks.

All the best

 Signature 

Dr. Sassi V. Sassmannshausen Ph.D.
Cinema 4D Mentor since 2004
Maxon Master Trainer, VES, DCS

Photography For C4D Artists: 200 Free Tutorials.
https://www.youtube.com/user/DrSassiLA/playlists

NEW:

NEW: Cineversity [CV4]

Profile
 
 
Posted: 08 January 2016 07:37 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]  
Total Posts:  11
Joined  2013-12-15

Hi,
thanks for your fast response. I made a quick jpeg with a very early prototype of the product and I have post it here as attachment. I have drawn a cutting edge (one of many) to show what I need. This part will be a separate cover.

Dr. Sassi - 07 January 2016 03:59 PM

Hi Pixler,
Is that eventually for a 3D printer?

No.

Cutting along a spline is certainly possible, as long as you use the spline a “snapping option” and the underlaying mesh supports the cuts. A cut is always a straight line between two edges [or points], and edges by itself are also always straight.

Yeah, I know this workflow, but the result is awfull. What I need is a kind of dynamic tessalation to get a smooth and round edge, cause I need later some detail renderings. Perhaps you have an idea. wink

Regards
Pixler

Profile
 
 
Posted: 08 January 2016 03:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]  
Administrator
Avatar
Total Posts:  12043
Joined  2011-03-04

Hi Pixler,

Thanks for the image.

As I mentioned, the area where you cut needs a mesh that supports it; Awful results are possible if that is not given. A dynamically production of subdivision while you cut is not available to my knowledge in any release of C4D.

Based on your image I would say you need to “Slide Edges” so they fit to your sketched line. It is so close already that cutting into this nice mesh would be not my suggestion at all.

Then select the area inside of the “sketched line” and do the next steps, e.g., an “Extrude Inner” or what ever the next step is.

I have written it since over a decade, modeling is like playing chess, the best results are given when one thinks many steps ahead. As your model looks like based on a Subdivision Surface treament, perhaps you can even tweak the base mesh toward the results you need.

All the best

 Signature 

Dr. Sassi V. Sassmannshausen Ph.D.
Cinema 4D Mentor since 2004
Maxon Master Trainer, VES, DCS

Photography For C4D Artists: 200 Free Tutorials.
https://www.youtube.com/user/DrSassiLA/playlists

NEW:

NEW: Cineversity [CV4]

Profile
 
 
Posted: 08 January 2016 04:26 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]  
Total Posts:  11
Joined  2013-12-15

Hi Sassi,

Dr. Sassi - 08 January 2016 03:49 PM

Hi Pixler,

As I mentioned, the area where you cut needs a mesh that supports it; Awful results are possible if that is not given. A dynamically production of subdivision while you cut is not available to my knowledge in any release of C4D.

Yepp, I know. The only way here is always using bools, but you and I know that boole is not the best skill of cinema wink

Based on your image I would say you need to “Slide Edges” so they fit to your sketched line. It is so close already that cutting into this nice mesh would be not my suggestion at all.

Yes I already tried this and the slide tool is since R16 (or was it R17) much better, especially the option for holding the curve. But nevertheless its not a realy good way in this case.

Then select the area inside of the “sketched line” and do the next steps, e.g., an “Extrude Inner” or what ever the next step is.

That was a way I’ve tried. No real good result.

I have written it since over a decade, modeling is like playing chess, the best results are given when one thinks many steps ahead. As your model looks like based on a Subdivision Surface treament, perhaps you can even tweak the base mesh toward the results you need.

All the best

Yes, it is based on a subdivision surface. Unfortunately is this model not made by me and I got no access to the original :(

Thanks again
Pixler

Profile
 
 
Posted: 08 January 2016 05:53 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]  
Administrator
Avatar
Total Posts:  12043
Joined  2011-03-04

HI Pixler,

As you pointed out, you have had created a Spline for that exact shape already. You have the polygon object. If anything is already deleted, perhaps check you back up files (auto-save).

Please use the provided upload link to share all of that with me. Also, please provide also a sketch or an information what you like to do after that shape (as marked in your image) is established. I certainly will spend some time to find what could work here in the best way. The more details and informations I get, the better my reply will be.

I will monitor the Upload Link, and will check out what I can do for you. I really like to focus on solution, and spend my ideas on what is working, I guess that is your favorite part as well, right?

I look forward to solve this. :o)

Options and Tools to consider:

(in addition what was mentioned already)

-Correction Deformer, with Spline and snap (Think of the existing edges as a source to create new splines)
-Pen Tool, to create a new mesh with the needed “edges” in mind. Polygon Pen, Part 07: Retopologizing
-Use the Boole tool and consider a manual fix of the seams.
-Use the Surface Deformer (UV Projection) and create a patch.
-Project two splines (inside and outside) to get a new seam, connect manually.
-Start over. Yes, I do it often, even to find the “Best practice”.

All the best

 Signature 

Dr. Sassi V. Sassmannshausen Ph.D.
Cinema 4D Mentor since 2004
Maxon Master Trainer, VES, DCS

Photography For C4D Artists: 200 Free Tutorials.
https://www.youtube.com/user/DrSassiLA/playlists

NEW:

NEW: Cineversity [CV4]

Profile
 
 
Posted: 09 January 2016 10:07 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]  
Total Posts:  11
Joined  2013-12-15

Hi Sassi,

Thanks again for you support. I will send some more infos and a little project file next week here in this forum.

Have a nice weekend and all the best
Pixler

Profile
 
 
Posted: 09 January 2016 03:22 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]  
Administrator
Avatar
Total Posts:  12043
Joined  2011-03-04

Hi Pixler,

I look forward to it, thanks! I will leave the Upload link open, but if you can share it in public, even better.

Have a great weekend as well.

 Signature 

Dr. Sassi V. Sassmannshausen Ph.D.
Cinema 4D Mentor since 2004
Maxon Master Trainer, VES, DCS

Photography For C4D Artists: 200 Free Tutorials.
https://www.youtube.com/user/DrSassiLA/playlists

NEW:

NEW: Cineversity [CV4]

Profile
 
 
Posted: 11 January 2016 12:58 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]  
Total Posts:  11
Joined  2013-12-15
Dr. Sassi - 09 January 2016 03:22 PM

Hi Pixler,

I look forward to it, thanks! I will leave the Upload link open, but if you can share it in public, even better.

Have a great weekend as well.

Hi Sassi,

here is the cinema file with an early prototype. there are two file in it. The subsurface object and the same as editable mesh. On this one I placed a texture with the cut I need. This part (grey) must be a separate cover. Hope you have some good ideas how I can cut this part. it is not so urgent.

Thanks for your great support
Regards
Pixler

EDIT: It seams that there are some problems uploading the file here in the forum. So I uploaded it via your link. The name of the file is “cinevercity_Pixler.zip”

EDIT 2: You can of course publish the file here wink

Profile
 
 
Posted: 11 January 2016 04:56 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]  
Administrator
Avatar
Total Posts:  12043
Joined  2011-03-04

As this is for workflow only, I might not put the same precision in it as I would — if it is for final use. I care here about the steps I do to get those things done. After all, I have to make certain that no one expects me to do someone else’s work ;o) I hope we can agree in that point. Good. The file available via a link, see PM.

…this is just one method. ;o)


Inspection of the model
The provided model is a wild mix out of Triangles, Quads and N-Gons. All Normals are equally directed, but most polygons are non-planar.
For a clean mesh, with Subdivision Surface use later on, one should focus on quads, or if triangles are used, that those weight the center point equally. N-Gons are always only a intermediate step, not a final option, if one likes control over the model.
The size of each polygon, except for some frame polygons are nicely balanced,but the frames are long.
To use Bevel Deformer is possible, but since it introduce virtual points, I’m not really happy with those. But possible, even they limit more during that stage. Since they affect the area where the Batter-Lit has to be, not my way of modeling.

The provide low res model is a good start to work with, the subdivided version is useless for the next target (I guess it was more to check the current progress), but since we have the low res, all is fine, even if it needs the translation of the “Bevel” into polygons.
I do those examinations to get familiar with the mesh, after checking what the target is, and this work allows me to “think” about the next steps. I write all of that down, to support everyones work, not to critique anything.

First, I disabled all the Bevels, and checked one by one which one is really influencing the area we care about here. It is the first and third one, so I will shut all off, and recreate the Bevels 1 and 3 manually. This will allow me to solve some triangles into quads as well. The bevel-objects react to the given mesh, and most changes there might result somewhere to something I wouldn’t want. I can’t even see the results of those, while in Polygon mode. It makes it difficult to work at that stage. (I like Bevel Obj, don’t get me wrong).

Bevel Deformer #1 resulted on one end to create out of a quad an N-Gon and on the other end “exploded” in an “Complex point” resulting into a triangle cluster. However, as this is not the real point in question, I have only worked on the parts I needed. Perhaps the model is fine for a certain use, even with all the N-Gons in it, but I prefer to model with quads, and allow triangles only if there is no way around (happens, if re-start modeling isn’t possible).

I created then the Edge Splines as a guide, as there was none in the file. I set the given Sketch Texture to a higher resolution in the Material>Editor>Texture Preview Size. Given the bold stroke, 4MB was plenty here.
Based on this three (Back, Front, Side [camera based]) Splines, I was able to see what kind of mesh was needed. I copied the left to the right side.

The main decision would be now, a) to re-topologize the mesh and work with the sub-divided “previous results” and get a low res mesh that comes already close to the needs of the edges (body vs lit), or b) to work with what is given. A re-topologizing is discussed in a Cineversity tutorial (Pen Tool) so I will not go that route (even that would be best!), and instead discuss another route. Via subdividing the existent mesh.

There are two options: One to subdivide the mesh completely (but step by step!), with Mesh>Commands>Subdivide [Smooth Subdivision] or follow the spline and cut the crossing edges, to get the needed information into the mesh.
The Smooth option has the advantage that the mesh will be very close to the Subdivision Surface Object results, and with a lower level needed in the Subdivision Surface [faster] .

The Edge option will create an more flat area, if the Subdivision Surface Object would create a round surface there. Which can result in the need for supportive splines (guide/snapping) as well for this to counter the flat version. As this is a small object, I go with the first option. It produces more polygons, but as the total amount stays the same, the more efficient edge-cutting will be not used, and lots of time is saved. It’s a judgement call; Make your pick. I create copies always, call them BU [back up] and move further. Autosave is on as well, but I love to have it right inside the scene.

I decided on this level (first subdiv), which points can be moved, and perhaps what points will be available during the next iteration of Smooth Subdivision.

Moving points (Slide) along an edge is a one time action, never ever (except neighbor edges are on the same flat plane) use the slide tool again to move points again or back, cmd Z and then do it again, never twice. The results might be unusable.

On the second subdivision level, again only sub-div “Level 1” each time, I have to adjust previous and new points. Especially the neighbor points are crucial, as they will determine the next sub-division level and with that the position of the new points. To be sloppy here, will cause more work later.

For long round lower edge I decided to go with two triangles, and not subdivide further. This is an ugly short cut, and needs to be handled carefully, on the last and 3rd subdivision. I introduce this here more for variance reason. A new topology would be my wish, less resolution in one and more in the other direction of that roundish object, but here you go. I left the top edge (which is similar) alone, so you might explore it … :o)
On the back, the two half round, I roughly laid out the edge and then used an extrude inner to support the roundish edge (image). It needs more care.

These steps, once done one time through, hopefully allows to see how much each step has influence into the next. This will save time, to not go too crazy in each, but supports the work in the next one.

My best wishes

 Signature 

Dr. Sassi V. Sassmannshausen Ph.D.
Cinema 4D Mentor since 2004
Maxon Master Trainer, VES, DCS

Photography For C4D Artists: 200 Free Tutorials.
https://www.youtube.com/user/DrSassiLA/playlists

NEW:

NEW: Cineversity [CV4]

Profile
 
 
Posted: 12 January 2016 07:00 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]  
Total Posts:  11
Joined  2013-12-15

Hi Sassi,

WOW, that is more than I expected. As far as I can see it´s all clear and understandable. I will try your workflow in the next days and I think it will work. Unfortunately I can´t show you the next steps, cause I signed a NDA. But I will tell you wether it works or not wink

Thanks again for your great support.
Have a good time
Pixler

Profile
 
 
Posted: 12 January 2016 03:40 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]  
Administrator
Avatar
Total Posts:  12043
Joined  2011-03-04

Hi Pixler,

Thanks a lot for the great feedback. :o) The method above is what I see as “massaging the mesh in steps” toward what is needed. Not a process for the “instant reward society” ;o)

Modeling is certainly a fun work, but of course, the more option we know, the more it end in great results.talking with people about modeling, it seems to polarize them into “is there a plug in” and “I get into the flow or zen mood” groups, with anything between. I mentioned the Chess idea [several steps ahead and win the game], additionally: the main work of a modeler is certainly to constantly decide what technique to use next, and perhaps how to mix those. With that being said, I hope you have a few minutes to have a look to these two tutorials. I consider these techniques as essential, as you can build up upon those.

I have added two links here:

http://www.cineversity.com/vidplaytut/polygon_pen_part_07

and

http://www.cineversity.com/vidplaytut/modeling_02_cylindrical_hole

Please keep in mind that your model and the targets of it is certainly not beginner or intermediate challenge. I certainly hope that you get this done in a way that you feel great to have gone through it. Modeling can be very rewarding. If there is something else, please ask!

ENJOY.

 Signature 

Dr. Sassi V. Sassmannshausen Ph.D.
Cinema 4D Mentor since 2004
Maxon Master Trainer, VES, DCS

Photography For C4D Artists: 200 Free Tutorials.
https://www.youtube.com/user/DrSassiLA/playlists

NEW:

NEW: Cineversity [CV4]

Profile
 
 
Posted: 13 January 2016 12:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]  
Total Posts:  11
Joined  2013-12-15

Hi Sassi,

Dr. Sassi - 12 January 2016 03:40 PM

Hi Pixler,

Modeling is certainly a fun work, but of course, the more option we know, the more it end in great results.talking with people about modeling, it seems to polarize them into “is there a plug in” and “I get into the flow or zen mood” groups, with anything between. I mentioned the Chess idea [several steps ahead and win the game], additionally: the main work of a modeler is certainly to constantly decide what technique to use next, and perhaps how to mix those. With that being said, I hope you have a few minutes to have a look to these two tutorials. I consider these techniques as essential, as you can build up upon those.

Yes, thats true, but often the client ask for things nobody can offer without a fast and dirty option, like a plugin. smile

Dr. Sassi - 12 January 2016 03:40 PM

I have added two links here:

http://www.cineversity.com/vidplaytut/polygon_pen_part_07

and

http://www.cineversity.com/vidplaytut/modeling_02_cylindrical_hole

Please keep in mind that your model and the targets of it is certainly not beginner or intermediate challenge. I certainly hope that you get this done in a way that you feel great to have gone through it. Modeling can be very rewarding. If there is something else, please ask!

ENJOY.

I know this 2 Links. They gave me a better understanding of what I can do with the new pen tool. Also the workfow for making holes save me a lot of trouble. smile

BTW: One last Question. I have tried to use the new spline tool on my mesh. I wanted to project the spline to the hull with the new projection option of the “Spline smooth” tool. I only activated “Project”, but I wasn´t able to make a clean projection. The projected spline was always smoothed, even though “Smooth” was deactivated. I made a little screenshot to show you the problem. The red spline is before projecting, the other is the projected spline. As you can see the result is awfull. Any Idea what I can do?

Regards
Pixler

Profile
 
 
Posted: 13 January 2016 03:46 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]  
Administrator
Avatar
Total Posts:  12043
Joined  2011-03-04

Hi Pixler,

Please check out the Mesh>Spline>Project function. (See file)

Note that the result is dependent on the number of Points along the spline. (In the Layer Manager, you can get the source files. I used the Object Manager>Objects>Current State to Object, to get these copies)

As you can see they are pretty close, nearly identical in the top view. Perhaps the tool you like to have instead.

====

To use the Pen Tool for a new mesh, includes of course that the “battery-lit contour” is included in this work, I was not certain if I have to mention it.

All the best

File Attachments
CV2_r17_drs_16_MOsp_01.c4d.zip  (File Size: 31KB - Downloads: 150)
 Signature 

Dr. Sassi V. Sassmannshausen Ph.D.
Cinema 4D Mentor since 2004
Maxon Master Trainer, VES, DCS

Photography For C4D Artists: 200 Free Tutorials.
https://www.youtube.com/user/DrSassiLA/playlists

NEW:

NEW: Cineversity [CV4]

Profile
 
 
Posted: 13 January 2016 04:37 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]  
Total Posts:  11
Joined  2013-12-15
Dr. Sassi - 13 January 2016 03:46 PM

Hi Pixler,

Please check out the Mesh>Spline>Project function. (See file)

Note that the result is dependent on the number of Points along the spline. (In the Layer Manager, you can get the source files. I used the Object Manager>Objects>Current State to Object, to get these copies)

As you can see they are pretty close, nearly identical in the top view. Perhaps the tool you like to have instead.

All the best

Yes, This function is very well known to me. In the past I used it very often. But I thought one of the main features of R 17 was the “Spline smoother” tool which needs no further increase of the points. In this tutorial here
http://www.cineversity.com/vidplaytut/how_to_project_and_snap_splines_onto_geometry
they say this is the big advantage over the other solution you mentioned above.

Regards
Pixler

Profile
 
 
   
1 of 2
1