Cineversity

It appears the Cloth tag doesn’t like objects that are being sub-divided and tears just like the morph tag.

I tried turning off all morphs and using the point cache tag. But if the sub-division is turned on, tearing is exactly the same as with morphs.

I tried using the point cache on the sub-division object, but it appears this tag only works on mesh objects.

I tried increasing the cloth sub-samples back up to 36, what only reduces the tearing but I noticed in the animation the cloth is not as fluid and looks “noisy”.

This issue can be reproduced with the same sample project sent yesterday.

There must be something we’re (or I’m) missing as can’t believe I’m the first to discover this.

Hi brucek5,

I guess at this point, you need to contact support. It seems to be a problem that requires different attention.
https://www.maxon.net/en/support-center

To answer the points above, before you go to the support:

All this information is not useful without knowing if you have left the Cloth parameters to the initial way too stiff settings, so please share that with the support. If that dress needs to be that stiff, then it should be driven by joints. As mentioned, that is not the way fabric works, IMHO.

Yes, Cloth works only with polygon objects, not generated objects, except the Cloth collider, which does work either way (typically). So, arguing that the Point cache is not working with generated object (v polygon) makes me wonder if we talk about the same problem anymore. But please check with the support with this problem. Since the collider would be a polygon object since it is joint driven.

Yes, high sub-sampling results in tighter movements. If the sub-sampling is too low, the collider pushes through. One can’t have it both ways, sorry. There are limits, and these limits become tighter the more the settings work against each other.

Good luck with the support. I hope they can tell you more.

Cheers

Hi Dr. Sassi,

I was afraid this was going to head down this path. My last Maxon ticket took three weeks for just the initial reply.

FYI - To be clear, all my last round of tests used the ALL cloth settings you provided me which doesn’t have the high stiffness, friction, etc.

What’s odd about all this, is the cloth works beautifully even with the sub-sample at 3 (and your other settings). Attached is a frame from an animation I just did where the character is turning around. From a user, I don’t see why the use of morphs that have keys or subdivision would require a different workflow or settings.

While writing this response, I’m wondering if I cached the cloth simulation before turning on the sub-division, if the cloth would start ignoring what ever it doesn’t like from the sub-division…

Thanks for trying, Bruce.

Thanks a lot, Bruce.

First of all, I’m really sorry, as this must be very frustrating for you.

I had hope that the support had maybe a different idea and adds to the problem-solving. But, yes, three weeks sounds not really encouraging.

Yes, the morphs should not do that. This is a wild guess, but to me, it feels like the mesh moves for a super short time elsewhere, and then for the editor or even rendering, all is normal. I tested that theory with the Delay effector set to Deform, which would tame that behavior (if that would be real), but so far, I had no luck hunting it down.

At the moment I have another idea. I will check it out. I know that a problem comes back until it is solved; hence, my interest in figuring it out is certainly given. But it obviously needs time. I have to run more tests with some other parameters.

Thanks for your patience.

Cheers

Hi Dr. Sassi;

Well I have a work around. Running the Cloth cache before sub-division is turn-on works. So if follow these steps:
1) Create my animation including morphs, giggles, and collision deformers with sub-division off.
2) Apply the point cache.
3) Run the cloth cache using the point cache.
4) Turn on the sub-division.
5) Render.

There’s no cloth tear and the cloth sub-samples are only a value of 3, so the cloth moves very fluid. I even ran my animation with no thickness just see how much “poke-through” there was and there was only a couple of frames where there was a micro spot that most wouldn’t notice. I’m still going to use the thickness because the cloth looks too thin.

With this all said, I can’t help to wonder how many other users have been fighting Cinema 4D cloth tear for the wrong reason. You can find a lot on this subject on Cinema 4D based forums, and almost have them suggest upping the samples and Iterations to out of this world huge values or simply not using cloth and rigging. I spent some time today searching the internet and I haven’t anything on issues found on this posting with you.

Because of all this, I’m questioning the value of me submitting a ticket to Maxon.

If you wish, I can send you the 13 mb video animation of these results (if you send me a link).

We can call this posting closed.  Thanks.

Bruce Kingsley

Hi Bruce Kingsley,

Researched in my usual sources, I was not able to find such a connection of this problem.

I have sent you a link with a Remeshed figure while leaving the dress in place on the figure.
I have also replaced the dress on your original character.
In both cases, I replaced the PoseMorph. But, unfortunately, each time, I could not reproduce the problem.
I have no problems after resetting the Binding pose and using a new PoseMorph. I typically reset the Binding Pose, when a problem seems weird, just in case. So there is no problem there.

If I just delete all the Pose Morph keyframes, no problem. When I check the velocity of the PoseMorph, it seems enormous.

Delete all the keyframes of the PoseMorph, set Pose.1 at frame zero to zero and then at frame 16 to 100%: Problem shows up. With out that key frame, no problem.

The is the correct next step for this case: Tech support. It is not a “how to use it” question anymore. It seems to show something that needs to be addressed to the tech support, which is the “funnel” and hot wire towards the developers. If that needs to be changed, that is the way.

Thread closed, as you have asked for, I will stop here, no problem.

Thanks for your contribution.

I hope a manual set PoseMorph will work for you.

My best wishes for your project.