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Problems Connecting Face Rig to Advanced Biped
Posted: 24 February 2021 06:48 PM   [ Ignore ]  
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Hi!

I have watched Can Erduman’s Face Rig Tutorial. In it, he teaches how one can attach Face Rig to another rig by applying an Add PSR Constraint to Face Rig’s “Face_Algn” and the head bind joint of another rig

My problem can be recreated by one by just creating a Face Rig Character Object and an Advanced Biped Rig Character Object, and connecting the intended Face_Algn/Head joint (one might need to Axis Snap the two so that they both are in the same coordinates, so I do not feel the need to upload a project file here

So, the problem is, at first, the Face Rig rotates -180 degrees R.H when connected to Advanced Biped’s “BD_Head_jnt”. I have fixed this by rotating Face Rig’s “Head_bnd_jnt” to -180 degrees R.H while holding 7 in Adjust mode

However, this resulted in another problem wherein when I switch my selection from one object to another object back and forth in the Objects Manager, the Face Rig incrementally rotates probably about 5 degrees R.P.

I have also tried connecting Face Rig’s “Face_Algn” to Advanced Biped’s “BLND_Head_jnt” and “Head_con+”, but same results. You could try, maybe I am just experiencing this on my end.

Please help, Thank you!

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Posted: 24 February 2021 08:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]  
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Hi georgewhite331,

Please have a look at the file below:
https://www.amazon.com/clouddrive/share/T2Y2jJQwFvmy9wBKrQCbqUz3tmgLWpuD9uN2aMOHym6

Is this working for you?
I have just rotated the Face-Rig in the offset area of the PSR.

This should work, except for the Priorities; please have an eye on this for your own project.

All the best

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Posted: 25 February 2021 04:41 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]  
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Thank you for the reply Dr. Sassi. I tried recreating it on my project, but it would still create some weird random orientation/position on the Face Rig. I will just attach my file on this reply. Please check it when you can, thank you!

Link for my file: https://www.amazon.com/clouddrive/share/DKvrl5lmisyUBY7AMkoFOKG459wEvGEhwBP1B3jD17d

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Posted: 25 February 2021 06:59 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]  
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Hi georgewhite331,

Thanks for the file. Here is a screen-capture:
https://www.amazon.com/clouddrive/share/Ebfs5VjGQbmJyVTGJzboxIXwyvStkAWEvzg2NUr2IF7

It works as shown above.
Let me know if that works for you.

All the best

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Posted: 25 February 2021 07:02 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]  
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Thank you again, Dr. Sassi. I have tried to follow your video. It has fixed the 180 degree orientation problem. But, there was another problem I encountered where the Face Rig rotates up like 5 degrees (from my first post, I mentioned it, but this time it does not do it incrementally when I switch selections in Objects Manager). I tried following the video you uploaded like three times, with the Face Rig/ Body Rig Character Objects in Animate Mode and all that, but the 5 degree thing still persists. I will upload an image of before-and-after the Constraint Tag has been applied.

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Posted: 25 February 2021 07:48 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]  
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Hi georgewhite331,

The scene you have had sent me had zero weightings from the Face Rig. This means you have either a different version now, or you search for the 5º in the wrong place. Switch off the Face rig and try to reproduce the 5º problem. In the file I have here, it shows up.
Select all the Controllers of the Body Rig and press the Reset PSR. Does the problem disappear? (Which I do automatically when I get a scene file, as it is certainly a standard to keep the controller at “zero” in that phase.)

If not, try the following: (perhaps on a copy, just to be safe.

While the Body Rig is in Object> Animate mode:

Uncheck the green arrow of the Skin Object to get a red x.
Go to the Weight Tag, and press one time the Reset Bind Pose Button.
Check the red x to get the green arrow again.

Better? If not:

Uncheck the green arrow of the Skin Object to get a red x.
Then press one time the Set Bind Pose Button.
Check the red x to get the green arrow again.

Cheers

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Dr. Sassi V. Sassmannshausen Ph.D.
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Posted: 25 February 2021 09:04 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]  
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Hi Dr. Sassi. I apologize for not explaining it clearly. The before-and-after photos I uploaded on my last reply does not relate to the weighting (at least for my understanding). The 5 degree rotation happens on the Face Rig Components after applying Constraint Tag. One can see this in the before-and-after photos from the last reply (might help if one use the mesh’s edges as a guideline to see the difference). The before-and-after photos came from the same file I uploaded (they both do not have weighting from the Face Rig, which is why the before-and-after photos from my last reply did not deform the mesh when it rotated 5 degrees upward)

I tried resetting the PSR of the Body Rig, resetting the weights like you told me, but the 5 degree problem is still there

I now removed the weighting of the mesh, and the problem still persists

I will link a screen capture video of my process where the 5 degree problem is apparent. I hope you can help me with this, thank you so much

Link: https://www.amazon.com/clouddrive/share/GDEcco3oSkW1gLx1rlgKsL8PPgkyEKrCo60UZrK2Ylp

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Posted: 25 February 2021 10:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]  
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Thanks again for the visual feedback, georgewhite331, and for using a well known cloud service. As usual, images have only a limited amount of information. So, let’s try this:

Please ignore your character for a moment, and let’s start from scratch.

Can you set up the two-character objects as in the screen capture below?
https://www.amazon.com/clouddrive/share/2OFA4w3HtoSuW2dkymNLLhlUCngEw3sJ5IJHpJQfhyu
Please place the face object below the Body; otherwise, the priorities will not work.
(The Mesh should sit below these two for the same reason.)

Please note that I used the two positions (140, -5) to stress this point. They should match, of course; otherwise, your rotation of all face features is just off. Sorry if I point this out, but I do so, only if that was not clear to anyone following along. (I write in a forum here for artists with varying degrees of skills in each module.)

The file was in the link as well.

All the best

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Dr. Sassi V. Sassmannshausen Ph.D.
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Posted: 26 February 2021 04:56 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]  
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Hi Dr. Sassi. Thank you for your taking the time to help me. I have now rearranged the order of my objects in the Objects Manager (Body Rig above Face Rig, and the meshes at the very bottom). I feel like I have fixed my 5 degree problem (it is actually about 6 degrees), but not 100% sure if it is like a permanent fix. What I did was that I increased the R.P from 0 to 6 on the Constraint Tag (I will attach a photo). I am afraid to go back to Face Rig’s Adjust Mode because that is when the 6 degrees problem comes up incrementally when I switch selections in Objects Manager.

If this was not the right “permanent” fix for my problem, I would really appreciate it if you tell me it is not, or like tell me another method.

In my “FINALFINAL_0002” project, for the tutorial you recently posted, I have tried changing the coordinates of the BD_Head_jnt and Face_Algn using Coord. Manager, but the BD_Head_jnt keeps resetting its coordinates for some odd reason (even though I was in Body Rig’s Adjust Mode)


Again, thank you so much. This really was a big help!

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Posted: 26 February 2021 06:25 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]  
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Thanks for the feedback, georgewhite331!

The resetting (I’m guessing here) might come when you have already weighted your character and then go back to adjust things.
After the dots are adjusted, you might have clicked on the Bind button. IS it there when it snaps back? What happens is that you get the information that was set into the Weight tag> Binding Position. This will not be updated by itself. So you get the old stuff back.

If you really need to adjust things again, avoid the Bind button and go instantly to Animate–while the Skin object is off!
Now, set in the Weight tag the new Binding Position (Controllers have been not moved, and they should be in their zero position)

If that new Binding Position is set, switch the Skin back on.

The adjustment you have made are now acknowledged.

If I’m not mistaken, the face-rig rotation is exactly 5.87 °, when the head tip joint was set exactly above the head_joint. Then it follows that direction. I would try to move the Head_tip, so it avoids that jump. An example is here:
https://www.amazon.com/clouddrive/share/DkCvAvaYHuHPswqFuDhNuGC3YGysvKG4YAt2UPU3M0z
This will help to prevent the second entry in the rotation.

Whenever I have not absolute clarity about something, I call up a new scene and start from scratch with the least amount of parts. When I can do this repeatedly, it is easy to focus on more complex functions. We all need to learn these things at one point. Since applications change, I go into that each time newly. Keep in mind that the Body and the face rig together are both very advanced rigs, and it might take a while to feel really on top of it. Take your time, and I think you do. I have a good feeling that you are soon thrilled with your gained knowledge.

My best wishes.

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Posted: 27 February 2021 01:11 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]  
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Hi Dr. Sassi. I would just like to thank you, again, for helping me. This time, though, I am like 90% certain that I have permanently fixed my problem! So, after watching all the video you uploaded repeatedly, I was able to figure out how to use the Coord. Manager (in World mode) to make the Face Rig’s Head_bnd_jnt have the same PSR as Body Rig’s BD_Head_jnt (editing Face Rig’s Head_bnd_jnt in Enable Axis Modification mode (not sure if using Enable Axis Modification is going to be a problem later on when I am adjusting my rig))

With this method, I did not have to put 180 degrees on Constraint Tag’s R.B.

Also, the tip you gave me about how I need to disable the Skin Deformer if I want to re-adjust the rig was really helpful! I did not know that you have to do it first. From the tutorials I have watched, none of them have mentioned that part (which is very important in my opinion). Are there any more rigging tips like that I have to know? (I would really like to know them)

Thank you so much Dr. Sassi

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Posted: 27 February 2021 03:47 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]  
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Thanks for taking the time, georgewhite331.

I assume this procedure is not mentioned, as most tutorials go one time through the setup and done.
I’m not sure if that was the first time I have seen it, but here is an older quick-tip:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HeGA8ixmsZg


Interesting question. I honestly have never used the Axis Mode during the Adjust state. It feels counter-intuitive, as the change will not be “readable” somewhere, like in the PSR constraint. Typically, “I know what I did” might be challenging to remember, later on, opening the file.
If it works for you, use it.

Since the face rig holds hundreds of parts in it, it is not a simple answer. So I explore it, or course.

I have made many tests in the past hour, and the clearest sign of a change is noticeable when you export an unchanged and a changed rig via FBX. The Head_Bind_Int axis will change by adjusting (via Axis Mode) the Adjust Dot. This Joint is the start point of two “bones” as two joints are parented to it.
My personal understanding is that it is good practice to keep one axis here (it is often the z-axis) aligned to the joint. With any change, this alignment might be gone.
I have not profoundly tested position change with the Axis Mode at all. I assume you used it for the rotation only.
Kai is stressing this point here:
https://www.cineversity.com/vidplaytut/character_rigging_in_r12_aligning_joints

If the axis is aligned, rotations are simpler.

My best wishes

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Dr. Sassi V. Sassmannshausen Ph.D.
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Photography For C4D Artists: 200 Free Tutorials.
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Posted: 27 February 2021 09:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]  
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Hi Dr. Sassi. Since you told me that this Axis Modification method might cause some problems in some areas, I have decided to just input the difference in R.P and R.B of Face Rig’s Face_Algn and Body Rig’s BD_Head_jnt on the Constraint Tag (I put on R.P. = 5.942 (the exact difference of the two) and R.B. = 180). Is this the right fix for this? You kinda told me like from previous posts that I should move the Head Tip or something (not sure which head tip or how to move it). But, with this method of using Constraint Tag’s offset, I do not have the 5 degree problem and the 180 rotation problem (Just not sure if this is like a 100% fix). Thank you again

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Posted: 27 February 2021 09:33 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]  
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Hi georgewhite331,

Great that it works for you! It is a great feeling when things work, isn’t it?!

I had the Body rig in mind. Have a look a the attached scene in that post.

I snapped the Face rig during the Adjust phase to the head joint (position only). Then went back to the body rig and used the head tip (the dot of it) to match the face rig orientation in Adjust mode.

When this is done, only 180º were needed. (I’m on the fence to write a report about that 180º, it should fit without it.)

Again, just set up a new scene. And try precisely this. It works. It is clear and has no hidden information, as you would introduce with the Axis Mode tool.

BTW, I didn’t say it has a problem. I wrote that with hundred of items, it would take a long time to really see if there might be at one point a problem. All of that only to be able to use the Axis tool; while a method that works was already given? That felt like “fix it in post” when one could do it on set directly. So, I would avoid those steps. Sorry, I hope I do not sound unfriendly here, not my intention.

It is maybe a good idea to explore these rigs more in detail. IF you check the first 40 PSR constraints, not a single one of the Advanced Rig has any offset values in it; see image below. So, to keep it reduced to the rotation of the axis that aligns with the joint might work, but I would avoid offsetting others.

Enjoy your character work!

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Posted: 07 March 2021 09:43 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]  
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Hi Dr. Sassi. Thank you again for your time. I have a sort of delay problem. I feel like it is a priority problem, but I followed your priority tips (where you order the objects in the Objects Manager by Body Rig > Face Rig > Meshes). I will share a link for my file. Please have a look at it (I animated Body Rig’s Torso_con+ to show the delay between Body Rig and Face Rig)

I have tried changing the Priority of the Constraint Tag that connects the Body Rig and the Face Rig (tried both high negative/high positive number, but both did not fix the delay problem). I have also tried putting Shift Priority Tag to Face Rig, but no luck. I have also tried disabling the Delta Mush Deformer for the Body Mesh (I have not really fixed the weighting of stuff, so I temporarily resorted to Delta Mush).

Hope you could help me with this delay problem, thank you

Link: https://www.amazon.com/clouddrive/share/fsSWheqF9OTB2ext5sBqU1l0el0W5167QQYhh4f6Xie

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Posted: 07 March 2021 06:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]  
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Hi georgewhite331,

The Joint that will move the head mesh in the Character Object - Body Rig will undoubtedly have a Constrain tag. This tag has a priority; the Face Rig’s Face Align object needs a PSR that is at least equal or plus one higher. The body rig is above the Face rig in the Object Manager.
If the Body rig is keyframe-based, the default PSR settings should work.
Character rigs can be complex and include several specialized sub-rigs, which will be blend at one point. Which excludes these sub-rigs to be used as the base for the Face-Rig.

If that is not an option (Constraint PSR): Set the Binding Joints in any kind of keyframes, preferably with a Null object so one can create an Xpresso switch. However I fear that this one frame delay will stay.

Any information that is needed will be requested at that exact point. If the information is not available at that point, the information from the previous frame will be used.

Again, since I saw that one frame already, I mentioned it to put not more on top of it but having the Object Manager producing more.

If you like to use the Priority Shift Tag, make sure to exclude the PSR from the Head_Alignment Object, otherwise all shift the same way and nothing is solved.

If everything fails: In a nutshell, the only critical point here is the Body-Bind-joint that provides the information to the Face Rig. Using a simple Null between, backed to keyframes, this information would be at the beginning of the frame available, and the delay is gone. I have no other idea about it.
Yes, that should have been in the tutorial, and perhaps someone has a different idea about it.

All the best

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Dr. Sassi V. Sassmannshausen Ph.D.
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