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Cutting Into an Object Created by Splines
Posted: 17 February 2021 12:19 AM   [ Ignore ]  
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Hello! Next project. See pics of the simplified idea of what I need to make…
https://www.amazon.com/clouddrive/share/YjUNBnu55WyUjCI9tGi1Edz2l1pGFejQN6QW1w72jUE
I have to make a floating piece of land with a small creek flowing through it.

I want to make sure I set the file up correctly from the beginning.

I used a Plane in the last project, so tried that…
https://www.amazon.com/clouddrive/share/bwdG8sWQkbC2ASBwfJ6fhND1zuspOdLQZorEaQeXvqR

...but this one needs depth so I started again with a Cube…
https://www.amazon.com/clouddrive/share/QygaFlgUdyESLwJzPGLohCkeXvnW2lqdIZSGAaeL9Nd
...but then I struggled on how to make the land have that deformed shape around the edges.

My next tact was to draw a closed Spline of the shape that I want and extrude it, that worked great for the land, but then I got in trouble trying to get the displacer to work on the surface created by the Extrude.
https://www.amazon.com/clouddrive/share/I2FST8kOAxNBZVjhSXrwVKH4155jhyaINpnUuN6MsF0

How would you set up the file? The water needs to flow and the edges of the land need to show, but most of the project is using materials and Quixel to make it look realistic.

Thanks for any help!

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Posted: 17 February 2021 03:17 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]  
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Hi williams.7489,

Thanks for the files and for using Amazon.

The last project was based on the requirement that the topology needed to be animated. I do not see that here.

There are no rules or best ways to “something” in general. So, yes, to think about the options is the best point to start a project (not in the middle, of course, or just putting anything available into the file, keep it simple during the start, leave everything that could be in the way out for now.). Modeling is something that will grow with each project, and you might have a set of your favorite tools after a while.

Here I would with the Polygon-Pen tool and draw the river. With as square polygons as possible. Large and Square. The main shape is given here by the river and the borderline of the island. I would use the river and its shape as a starting point to have a smooth shape without a lot of polygons.

I have tried here to use the main tools for that and let it run from time to time into some trouble. This would be a half-hour tutorial, and the time-lapse here is just a little visual guidance.
Video 60 seconds
https://www.amazon.com/clouddrive/share/FoshOmqOoeGYp5jJtYTTRNOBrFdC1r9mI0fYrMcJ4Y5
The file
https://www.amazon.com/clouddrive/share/utmIHgOzwwOL5PMW1bhUjxSpz1FKt0VskT2ayCVpSt5
In v03, I have used the Iron tool as well to straighten out some points.

I have modeled the other side of the river only small, as it doesn’t give any extra information to do it twice.

From my perspective, the fewer polygons you need to create your shape, the better, while square polygons are good. Long rectangles are mediocre, and extra-long triangles are the least favorable, avoid triangles as much as possible.

As a side note, to sketch out with splines, the project is a good idea. The given spline topography will help you a lot, mainly including the river outline and the island outline. Note that splines can be used to snap your polygon point.

Once this island is done and you have a nice polygons flow, it is time to inspect the UV as the prep for any texturing. The lower you can keep the Polygon amount, the less work the UVs will give you. To take that low mesh and subdivide it is not the problem if only quads were used.

Save often, and keep the autosave on.

I think that is all that is needed, for now, so far I can tell by your material and information given.

Enjoy your model phase.

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Posted: 18 February 2021 02:15 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]  
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I watched the video over and over, but I got lost in some crucial places so decided to go a route that made more sense to me.

I finished the first part of the assignment today, to get the shape and river checked, and then went to render a single .PNG image with no background. I have successfully rendered images of this file a lot today, but it won’t work. In fact it won’t even render in the Viewport, or Render to the Picture Viewer. In both cases it never leaves the Preparing phase and then after about 5 minutes it freezes C4D and the program crashes. I’ve spent the last three hours turning off or deleting everything in the file but I can’t get it to work.

Here is the file
https://www.amazon.com/clouddrive/share/wTsWFqheg15BqPsirOLZqH31EyjcAnexlYuEMYA6Lab

Any ideas at all? Does it render for you? What causes this? Thanks!

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Posted: 18 February 2021 03:48 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]  
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Hi williams.7489,

I suggested keeping it as low in polygons as possible. As it is fast, easy to adjust, and keeps your scene renderable.
The path that the scene file describes goes the opposite way. Let me give you some details on that.

The “earth” polygon model has 132338 polygons. The SubdivisionSurface is set to 2/2, which results in a little bit over 2million polygons, or four million triangles during render-time.

The material you have set to the island has a Subdivision-Displacement setting of 12! Resulting in 1.6+ trillion triangles during render time. This will take some time to prepare. Hence the crashes, as most machines that I’m aware of, will not handle it.

If you have one (!) single polygon, with an entire subdivision of 14, it will result in 268,435,456 polygons, which results in 536,870,912 triangles during render-time. If that number (12) was just a test or not is not to me to decide. You asked what prevents your machine from giving you a rendering. That is definitely it.

Internally any image is rendered as a 32bit/channel float value. If you save it as PNG, it will not lower the render-time. In fact, it has to convert the 32bit/channel down to 8 or 16bit/channel integer and apply the needed profile to it, which is just another shift in values.

The last model had required quite some of my time getting the round river to shape smoothly by cutting polygons one by one. Otherwise, the “structure” of the mesh had shown through. Increasing the number of segments (polygons) is not really the way to go, but it is fast to be set up, sure, at least initially.

There are some excellent introduction tutorials available about modeling. I really encourage you to check them out.
https://www.cineversity.com/vidplaylist/modeling_101_-_pat/

My best wishes for your project.

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Dr. Sassi V. Sassmannshausen Ph.D.
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Posted: 18 February 2021 07:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]  
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So helpful! I knew about the importance of polygon count but didn’t realize that Material subdivisions caused them to increase, nor how much Subdivision surfaces affected the polygon count. Really helpful information. I know nothing about rendering and now I know a tiny bit.

The polygon count on the “Earth” polygon is the result of using Connect on the Spline Extruded. I tried using Polygon Reduction Generator and it screwed up the edges of the land even at the lowest amount of reduction (could be because it is under a Subdivision Surface? See screenshot of the excessive grid on the top here…
https://www.amazon.com/clouddrive/share/ZlpnsVXi200FyBRX1zSymGptgav6hAJzISeptyxIC6F

There is SO much to learn in this program it is truly overwhelming, I appreciate you sending along the modeling tutorial, please send those to me when possible, trying to fill-in the gaps as I go. Is there a directory of Cineversity videos by subject? I did the intro ones and then have had a hard time locating videos about the subjects I need help with on Cineversity. The endless YouTube videos are a huge waste of time.

I rendered out two .PNGs of the start, now for the materials with Quixel, wish me luck!
https://www.amazon.com/clouddrive/share/BN1G0uaWGoB7HCIdBmByuo8JKIlVdJF7rWUfeLP0q0s
https://www.amazon.com/clouddrive/share/ZlpnsVXi200FyBRX1zSymGptgav6hAJzISeptyxIC6F

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Posted: 18 February 2021 07:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]  
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You’re very welcome, williams.7489.

There are no mistakes, only gained experience. You gained a lot, as far as I can read in your reply.

Chaos is the inability to see structure. Learning basics allows seeing structure. Complexity is like chaos, in that matter.

Modeling is a job in its own rights, and in studios, you will find that artists even specialize them in different areas of it. It is often like playing chess. One needs to look a few steps ahead to be good. This can only be achieved with trial and error. It is possible for everyone, but it takes time. How much? Well, even our brain offers plasticity, there are three levels (chemical, structure, and function [Dr. Lara Bold]), and each will have a different need for time and is different. for each individual. However, if you hear that something is complex, it might be simple for you. Just explore and ask.

I think I took nearly an hour to write my reply [post #3]. To keep the balance between encouraging and telling what was going on. Yes, it is overwhelming at times. Mentoring since 2004, I see what is going on. Learning is for everyone different, and adult learning is often even more diverse, as the amount of “I know that” is already huge, i.e., the amount that needs to be unlearned.
The good news is, all is basic stuff, pretty much. The bad news is, if one skips over the basics, anything will overwhelm. Hence my link to the very basic modeling. I can’t express how sad I am when I see another cool-stuff tutorial aiming at beginners, while skipping the basic and focus mainly on polished results. It takes all the motivation out to focus on the basics.

If you look at the SubDivisionSurface, the max number is limited to 6 (!), and I have not used in 25 years anything higher than 3 for a final render.

In hands-on classes, I sometimes use the example of car paint. The final layer is super thin; If the preparation and the filler are not done well, no regular coating will give one a good result. Like that is modeling. If that is not done well, any step after that will just suffer. There is no shortcut without a price tag. The price for an inappropriate model is long-lasting and high. What is a good model? Something that has not more or fewer polygons than needed and which can be managed easily, while the flow of polygons is elegant.

Take any character object from the library, and check how the face’s topology is created. Given the vast amount of expression that we use to act, the amount of polygons is relatively small. Faces are like landscapes.

Anyway, modeling has many options, here is another one, perhaps you like that more:
https://www.amazon.com/clouddrive/share/G6dq9mqOA8501nxdnkPNB2mjcFN2cj6By3PtR76FON1

Is this the best way? That is up to you what you need and what tool fits you.

Enjoy

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Dr. Sassi V. Sassmannshausen Ph.D.
Cinema 4D Mentor since 2004
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Posted: 19 February 2021 09:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]  
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That last file you sent helped immensely! The Loft was the key to make the shape exactly as I wanted it, drastically lower the polygon count and I really enjoyed creating it. See my working file…
https://www.amazon.com/clouddrive/share/bdVyYW8t3C5jpedDKZLvtp6kJAdpxXWVvUMu9aVnIOL

My next step is to use UV Mapping to make the edge around the land look like undersoil and the underside have hanging roots. See the attached reference file, I don’t want the underside as deep as in this example, but just a taste of the roots so that it looks like something ripped up out of the ground. How would you approach adding those roots? Would you draw roots by hand? Add them on a material?

In the two deliverable photographs…
https://www.amazon.com/clouddrive/share/XNfijxdaYoTC3hdayc2olLwc8V3pv8ZSPc35r5C0MQp
...you can see in the End View that there are some strange things happening with the UV Map on the blunt end. Any clues how to fix that?

Also, any ideas you have to make it look a bit more like the attached pic would be welcome.

Thank you!

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Posted: 19 February 2021 11:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]  
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Hi williams.7489,

To adjust the UV, the Loft object needs to be made editable (or Object Manager> Objects> “Current State To Object” to keep the Loft as Back-Up).

The caps should be set to N-Gons. I have adjusted the segment amount and used the Cut Edges to get more quad-shaped polygons. The long polygons in the file I got are not preferable.

The caps were then sorted out with the Knife-tool, to have really only four-sided polygons. Triangles should always be avoided if you like to use any Subdivision methods. My suggestion goes one time to all the tools listed in the Mesh menu. There is no way around these tools, and the earlier you know what they do, the more time is saved.

I have set some selections to split the materials and s set the UV to a relaxed state.

Be aware that Material Displacement is not acknowledged by the Cloners. Check your sources.

The selections are s usable for either a two or three-material setup. The top and bottom are clear, but perhaps that might work if you need the border between the two.

The roots (which should be discussed in a separate post. Otherwise, one thread is too mixed up) can be done with hair. Just render and have a look.

File:
https://www.amazon.com/clouddrive/share/0iTwDf4BehrCe0TsuYQFMSxX3jySdLS3CVDwGIRHJ42

All the best

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Dr. Sassi V. Sassmannshausen Ph.D.
Cinema 4D Mentor since 2004
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Photography For C4D Artists: 200 Free Tutorials.
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Posted: 24 February 2021 06:58 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]  
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I am on hold with the main model, it’s coming along though.

I need to add cuttings to the edge of the creek. See attached pic of them in action. I thought I was doing a great job until I rendered it. All of my surfaces are coming from Quixel. I watched tutorials on UV Mapping and Modeling, but am clearly missing something because when you render this it is a disaster… looks great before that.

Basically I need a stick with some buds coming off the side and a diagonal shear on top. I tried using Plane Cut and it fell apart, using Line Cut I thought I had it, but clearly not. I’m attempting to use Pine surface on the outside and that Palm Bark on the diagonal cut surface.

Can you explain how I would fix this? Or how I would make that cut better, because clearly it was a disaster.

Here’s the file.
https://www.amazon.com/clouddrive/share/qNw1knBTX14B2dSCVxJey0ioiG1oHduo6PMkI76JvpW

Thank you!

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Posted: 24 February 2021 09:53 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]  
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Hi williams.7489,

Thanks for the file, always very much appreciated.

Uncheck the Displacement and render again: The values seem way off.

Use the Red/Green Setting (your displacement source is red), then a value that fits the sticks’ size. If the object has a diameter of not even 10cm, then a displacement of 6cm is way off. 0.05 looks more reasonable.
If you can’t see the sticks in detail, going by the image, don’t bother with the Displacement at all. It is a waste of render time; use bump or normal instead. For the few that would be in a close-up, you might use it.

If you cut, try to avoid triangles. Cutting from point to point often results in such. Leaving N-Gons in the model is not advised. N-Gons should be used during modeling, not during rendering. I pointed to the modeling series. I can’t stress enough to watch it.  The top and the bottom part have N-Gons. If these sticks are in the soil, why have any geometry at all at the bottom of the stick?

All the best

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Dr. Sassi V. Sassmannshausen Ph.D.
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Posted: 09 March 2021 10:35 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]  
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I am back to working on the land but am getting weird results in the rendering on the edges of the Loft.

https://www.amazon.com/clouddrive/share/P2yu54LWsJPiP8KBAJLsllGm7Jp4T9KAuPqFMzSyvTJ

I have changed the Displacer to Planar +Y in Object and that got rid of the big junk on the end, but there are still small things sticking up and the edge looks strange. What am I missing?

Thanks!

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Posted: 09 March 2021 11:23 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]  
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Hi williams.7489,

Please have a look here:
https://www.amazon.com/clouddrive/share/hnyrDPHCvixyxz1BdkeRXykAENJwoLKsp4DrXnlnXjI

Several things that work against each other. Pretty much all of them that we have discussed before, so I will list them only here. As you said, you just came back to it, and it happens to run into similar things again based on interruptions. No problem, let’s have a look:

The Caps were set as N-Gons. It had entries to other settings, so that was explored at one point. No idea why it went back to N-Gons: N-Gons are for the Modeling phase. They usually have no place later on in the workflow.

To have a displacer and Material Displacement at the same time needs attention. You use a red channel-based texture but leave it as Intensity centered. I would undoubtedly use only one direction. Centered is part of the problem here.

I can’t see any real advantage anymore in the SDS, with such a dense mesh.

The Displacer was set up so that it displaced the Splines and the LoftLoft, so it is kind of a doubled business. I made the Loft a stand a lone (just the Profile Splines as child objects, then converted it via Current State To Object. Then used the Displacer on it and used the Current State To Object on that again. In this way, Geometry has not to be generated in every single frame.

Perhaps one or another reads along, so let me add this: I had suggested a mesh-based model, which you didn’t like. For the Loft modeling, I would have shaped the river with the Profile Splines directly into the Loft shape, which would have limited the problems here to perhaps only the Material Displacement. Time saved early in modeling will possibly take more time later on.

I hope the Current State To Object workflow helps to get you where you like to be.

All the best

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Dr. Sassi V. Sassmannshausen Ph.D.
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Posted: 10 March 2021 02:49 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]  
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P.S.: Please have a look here
https://www.amazon.com/clouddrive/share/Q9moJi3DoNtKXsQw9tDd421nyn0JCh2FOIe8yYEcGGZ

I used the Remesh Generator, while the Spline (river) set the topology for the needed polygons. Two different resolutions. I also made some quick UV setups, so the texture flows nicely.

If that works for you, you can use the Loft workflow in any way you want after using Current State To Object, but get an even mesh on end anyway.

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Dr. Sassi V. Sassmannshausen Ph.D.
Cinema 4D Mentor since 2004
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Photography For C4D Artists: 200 Free Tutorials.
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Posted: 10 March 2021 09:50 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]  
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Thank you for sending the files, unfortunately they don’t open with the assets, so I can’t see what you did on them. The entire top surface will be covered with grass, shrubs and trees, so the top surface isn’t as important.

I have put my current C4D file up,
https://www.amazon.com/clouddrive/share/oJmefclUnEDSEKYbmKEM2tGwhXbrh7fWxKEVffer2s3

this has been approved, and I fixed everything except for the edge that I have circled in red in the attachment. I’m not sure how to get rid of that strange bevel. Keep in mind this program is still greatly overwhelming me and I don’t know which control does what. I am getting better with them, but still fairly clueless.

Apologies for my repetitiveness. I am working with Quixel for the first time. I turned the Displacement layer off, then reimported the surface and forgot to turn it off again. The “cut edge” in the front of the attached photo needs a raw soil look, I will do that next with UV Mapping and then I will add rocks to the base of the creek and start adding the real world elements.

I chose to take the points out of the splines that make up the Loft because they were causing the stream to be an uneven thickness. The stream needed to be uniformly wide throughout, so I went with the displacer where I could change the width and depth quickly. Unfortunately I can’t turn it into an object and go back over and over again, so I am trying to keep it editable as long as possible. I think that my next part of the job, UV Mapping, will make that impossible, so I will need that edge corrected before I make it a single object and start the texture resurfacing.

Thanks for the help as always!

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Posted: 10 March 2021 11:16 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]  
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Hi williams.7489,

The Loft Object has no option to change the UV manually.

Here is an example with the Remesh-Generator, and a UV edit that should work.

This file has only the mesh inside, so it should open.
https://www.amazon.com/clouddrive/share/EZId9TvUdDoIg36OEAmCw8WdNcdQtM4UXYPDIp5GLgI

Cheers

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Dr. Sassi V. Sassmannshausen Ph.D.
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Photography For C4D Artists: 200 Free Tutorials.
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Posted: 11 March 2021 12:45 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]  
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The first file you sent worked the magic. I was confused by what “Remesh” was. That worked great. Thanks!

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