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aovs, mulripass, physical shaders and compositing
Posted: 16 May 2020 07:58 AM   [ Ignore ]  
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Hello, I am using the C4D physical renderer and a physical shader with three layers (diffuse, phong,phong) and I would like to separate each layer into an aov or separate channel for compositing. Right now, they are combined in the reflection multipass render layer. How do you do this, and whar is best practice for render passes with physical node based shaders. I tried creating aovs in the material and connecting the result from the diffuse and phongs to the aov color inputs, but the input will now accept that. Thank you for your time and any advice.

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Posted: 16 May 2020 09:16 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]  
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Hi winteralfs,

I assume this was not helping:
https://www.cineversity.com/vidplaytut/how_to_render_material_id_passes_using_nodes

Please go to the Multipass button> Reflection. When this pass is added, click on the entry below the Multipass>Reflection. This shows then on the right field of the render-settings the options to split the Reflection pass into the components. Render, and you can see the individual passes.
(The Selected option is not given, though).

The AOVs are provided before the Material Node is calculated, so the Material AOVs have (AFAIK) only information available before this node. I have not found an option to do it in the Node editor (Reflection layers to AOV).

I have screen captured the two options, whereby the Node AOV is presumably not your target.
https://www.amazon.com/clouddrive/share/6m1hHyMK0bTX3DS8xtnGUk8HCvOctBnuw413quYwZuR

All the best

Edit: workaround
https://www.cineversity.com/forums/viewthread/4053/P15/#16191
/edit

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Posted: 16 May 2020 10:06 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]  
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Thank you! This is exactly what I was looking for. Much appreciated.

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Posted: 16 May 2020 10:08 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]  
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You’re very welcome, winteralfs, thanks for the reply.

Your questions lead me to make two feature suggestions, so thanks for that!

Have a great day, stay safe, stay healthy.

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Posted: 16 May 2020 07:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]  
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Thanks again! I had a couple more questions.

So, when I output my EXR, choosing to pack the channels into one EXR image file, I am not getting the three reflection layers that I see in the picture viewer. I only get the combined reflection. I do get the three layers if I choose to output separate image files instead of choosing the ‘multi-layer file option. Is there a setting I am missing?

Another question:
I only need a selected material, but the physical shader does not appear to have the separate pass option box like the standard shaders do. How do I choose that option on the physical, node based shader? Same with selected levels. I did see you mentioned this in your above answer. but I wanted to verify there is no way to only ask for one of my node based shaders to output the channels, it is either all of them or none.

Thanks again for all your help and time with this issue!

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channels.png
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Posted: 16 May 2020 08:25 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]  
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Hi winteralfs,

I have sent you an upload link. I typically ask for this, as I need to see your settings.

Please just a single exr and the scene file without any 3rd party material, or anything unrelated to the problem. Thanks.

I can’t reproduce it here in the way you have from your post.

Cheers

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Posted: 16 May 2020 09:36 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]  
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Thanks for the files, winteralfs, I hope this will clear it.

Please have a look here:
https://help.maxon.net/us/index.html#ZMULTIPASS-MULTIPASSOBJECT_REFLECTIONDATA

In both files that I have received, I can see for each layer, as well as in every material, the premultiplied rendering. Premultiplied [Composed] means here that the “color” as well the reflection is multiplied. (Not to confuse with the pre-multiply/un-multiply procedure, in a compositing-application.)
This is confirmed with your image above. The two main renderings are not included, and only their “mix” is.

The settings to get the Pre-Multiplied [Composed], Reflection, and Multiply per layer of the Node Material has the “3” in the text. Your scene files (both) were set to the option with the “1” in the text line. See the image below.

For the Reflection.car_paint_bubblegum, I get either three [R, G, B] renderings or nine (when set to the “3”). To be clear, the EXtractoR would show 9 single channels (“1”), or 27 single channels(“3”), each either R, G, or B.

To answer the question, the Node materials have no “separate / selected” option.
The features that are more frequently requested, get certainly more attention:
https://support.maxon.net/index.php?lang=en_US
Opening a ticked allows for such suggestions. The same address can be used if you think that the app is not working as it should.

I will keep the files a day on my disk, just in case there is a follow-up question, and delete them. It looks like a lot of work went into it.

My best wishes for your project, stay safe, stay healthy.

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Render_Relf_1-2-3.jpg
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Posted: 16 May 2020 10:00 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]  
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Thanks, I guess that was my question. I set it to ‘1’ expecting the 3 passes for the reflection multipass channel ( one for each reflection layer ) packed into the .exr. You get the three passes when you render out an image file to disc with the multi-layer file option checked off as opposed to the packed .exr. And you also see all three layers in the picture viewer within C4D. But the packed .exr seems to only store one channel for the multipass channel for reflection when viewed by the ExtractoR in AE, the combined image, despite the three reflection layers.

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only_one_channel.pngmulti-file_off.pngScreen Shot 2020-05-17 at 1.53.22 AM.png
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Posted: 16 May 2020 11:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]  
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Winteralfs,

Please have a look here:
https://www.amazon.com/clouddrive/share/LAymTfa1YLs9swvWEW28FjTTuALxeLErM3ldkcBooyK

I thought you wanted the multi-layer file. So, please do the following, save it as multi-layered 32bit/channel psd file, open it as Comp in Ae. Compare the results with the EXtratoR results.

Anyway, I have trouble with Ae seeing all, it sometimes leaves the green and blue channels out. (?) I checked the version 2019 and 2020, the same story. I went to Fnord’s website, but I couldn’t see any improvement with the update. When you write only one Reflections channel, is it the red one?

So I went with Fusion to have a look there, and it can read the file flawlessly. All I can see (with the help of Fusion) is that Cinema created a clean file.

As a side note, you are familiar with the aec workflow option?

My best wishes

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Dr. Sassi V. Sassmannshausen Ph.D.
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Posted: 16 May 2020 11:40 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]  
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Checking now… But the one channel I get is ‘net_maxon_render_node_bsdf@jwfWgd9gPdboqLbri09b_c_Composed’( you can see that in my attached image in the post above), which is the combined reflection channel. I am looking for the three reflections, one per channel, that make up the composed one, which I can get when I render out separate channels, but not in the packed .exr.

I dont think it is a matter of the ExtractoR not reading the .exr correctly.

If you bring in the .exr I sent to your dropbox into fusion, did you see the three reflection channels that make up the final reflection result available in the .exr?

Thanks for digging into this issue with me, its very helpful.

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Screen Shot 2020-05-17 at 3.34.32 AM.png
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Posted: 17 May 2020 09:20 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]  
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Hi winteralfas,

You can get three results per layer. One of the three is the combination of the other two. In the render settings, this combined result is called the Pre-multiplied, and this is the same only named Composed in the render-file. Cinema 4D does practically offers only two, plus a combination of the two. All of these are in the Your_Name.Car_Turntable.0025.exr

I can see that Ae2020 screws that up your file, mine works. But I have no idea how to fix it. Again, how about the aec workflow instead. With single passes?

If your material has four layers in the reflection, and the settings are 3 Pre-multiplied, Reflection, Multiplied. You should get four R, G, B renderings, showing up in the Open EXR file as 12 layers, plus any other layers that were rendered.

Here is a screen capture of what I see in Fusion: with a quick look at the same file in Ae2020 on end.
https://www.amazon.com/clouddrive/share/4totGWI62Xw6jJopmHqoy7jrEY29C5110fFfCUF2L4C

Anyway, I think I found the answer, but I need some time to explore it.

Have a great Sunday

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Dr. Sassi V. Sassmannshausen Ph.D.
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Posted: 17 May 2020 09:44 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]  
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P.S.: I certainly know how frustrating that must be.

To give you more options on your own, please go to the Fnord website:
https://www.fnordware.com/ProEXR/
This is the software that Adobe uses.

Download the latest plug in pack. Install the Photoshop plug in and restart Ps.

Open your file, and you can see that all files are there.

Check with the Adobe Support about the Ae problems.

Cheers

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Posted: 17 May 2020 11:29 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]  
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Thanks, you are getting the correct results, even with my .exr, but I am not seeing the same thing in After Effects 2020 on my end. I really just want to see the channels available in AE. I am sure it is user error on my part. Your latest video does show you are seeing the channels in AE, but when I open the same file in AE, I see only the composite bubblegum car paint available from the ExtractoR,not the other two. You seem to have three channels available. I recreated the same result using a sphere and new node shader, so it must be something on my end.  I am not sure what is going on, but it is frustrating. I really appreciate all the time you have spent helping me. I will dig a little further, but may have to settle for rendering out separate frame ranges for each channel just to move forward. Here are two more images showing what I see on my end. You can see I only see the composite image in AE, but if I render out the sequences for each layer rather than attempting a packed .exr, I see the three image sequences I would expect.  I will send you this new .exr I use for this test. I realize we are going in circles, so your patience is admirable!

I would need another dropbox ox link from you to show you.

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Posted: 17 May 2020 12:52 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]  
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Hi winterafls,

As I wrote above, I have a hunch. Let me explain:

I opened the renderings (Test-Turntable), in Ae2020 with ProEXR 2.5 to be precise. No luck.
Then I opened the same openEXR file in Photoshop with the Fnord ProExr plugin. Everything is there. In Ps, I replaced the names with 01, 02, 03, etc., exported it, all fine in Ae2020. WOW. What is going on…

So, why is that? I wrote to Fnord. Downloaded from Fnord, a file that I knew from Nuke training ten from over ten years ago, and what worked back then. All fine even now. (So what happens here?)

Then I had the idea to just replace your car material with a newly set up Node-Material (file 01), not anything else, nothing ready to use, only parts done from scratch. Three layers in the reflection while using the Turn-table project. Rendered it with the exact same setting. But all channels show up now.
With the “Car” material, the same file, just swapped out, trouble again. Whenever there is a net_maxon_render_bsdf@… in the render file list, it fails.
So I tried a long name for many layers in Photoshop, exported it, and those results read just fine in Ae.

Here is the file, render 01 (from scratch) and 11 (provided car material), import it to Ae, and extract each. All I can say after many hours invested in this: The ready to use material show up with problems, materials from scratch, not. So far, I can tell.
https://www.amazon.com/clouddrive/share/XNVtWMSSlYi6TXaboUwj4nZRopSl01Vc0zu4uibrgVY

BTW. if you like to Multi-pass comp them anyway, I would render only the “2 Reflection and Multiply” out.  Since the Premultiply/Composed channel is just the same as the two.

Cheers

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Dr. Sassi V. Sassmannshausen Ph.D.
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Posted: 17 May 2020 02:38 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]  
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amazing! I will try and reproduce this on my end and use your hard work.  I think we have some strong clues now and you are close to getting to the bottom of it. I may just recreate my car material from scratch and mimic the settings and hope and pray… I wonder if that would solve it. it sounds like its a naming issue/character issue. Great work and you went over and beyond with this one.

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Posted: 17 May 2020 02:54 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]  
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Thanks for your patience as well, winteralfs.

I believe that a problem comes back until it is solved, so I try not to get away with a short cut.

I read the text file “converter” of the Fnord plug-in, and there it states:

# For some properties to make sense (like Velocity), you actually need multiple channels
# working together.  Combine them in one entry, with a pipe ‘|’ between the channel names.
# AE will see that property as a multi-dimensional channel.
# # Hopefully nobody decides to use ‘|’ in their channel names.

However, I was not able to reproduce this problem with my Ps to Ae pipeline.

I have filed a report, and I hope it will give some more clues.

My best wishes

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Dr. Sassi V. Sassmannshausen Ph.D.
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