Can’t bind FBX animations to models
Posted: 07 December 2019 02:12 PM   [ Ignore ]  
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I’m new to Cinema 4D and 3D modeling animation but very experienced in 2D VFX and motion graphics. R21 Win 10 here.

I have a project that involved merging a bunch of FBX files from a client and animating a client supplied C4D model they purchased online. I’ve no trouble merging the animations with a motion clip to create the full character animation.

I can bind this animation to the built in “figure” primitive in 3D by selecting root of both and bind command. However, this does not work with client model or a couple of free models downloaded from Turbosquid.

I’ve tried both binding to just bones and whole model as per this tutorial
https://youtu.be/bi6jLn_Y4Lk . I’m guessing it’s due to rigging/bones differences or other complexity but would appreciate pointers on what I need to learn to figure this out.

stephen v2

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Posted: 07 December 2019 02:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]  
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Hi stephen v2,

I have no idea what is on your screen. Based on that, I can’t tell you anything helpful.

I have tried to sent you an upload link. Something is not working with the Cineversity Private Messages. Is you inbox full? Without a file I can’t tell you anything.

I will not comment on 3rd party tutorials. Binding a character can be simple or might require a lot of manual work. There is no general rule here, as each model will have its own requirements.
The rig must, however, fit the character during the process of binding, i.e., aligned. Typically a T-Pose does this, but again, each model might be different.

Cheers

Tutorials:
https://www.cineversity.com/vidplaytut/siggraph_2015_rewind_bret_bays_weighting_workflows_for_cinema_4d_character

https://www.cineversity.com/vidplaytut/weight_painting_part_1

There is certainly more, use the search and then filter via “Discipline”.

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Posted: 07 December 2019 02:30 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]  
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PM is enabled on my profile and I don’t have anything there so not sure what is wrong with that. Are you wanting an upload of a project file or model or both?

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Posted: 07 December 2019 02:34 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]  
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Yes, stephen, I tried to get a file. You can send me a PM, perhaps that will work. Your avatar name is stephen and you signed with stephen v2, maybe something I don’t get (I tried both for the PM, no luck).

If you use any cloud option, I touch only DropBox, Amazon, Google, Apple, or Adobe. Thanks

All the best

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Posted: 07 December 2019 04:40 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]  
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Thanks for the quick responses.I sent a PM with a dropbox link that should demo the issue clearly. I saved the project with assets so it should load correctly. I was unable to upload so I think the PM system here is not working correctly.

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Posted: 07 December 2019 07:43 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]  
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Thanks for the file, stephen, obviously the PM works so far in one direction. I tried to answer, no luck. This is a first in 13+ years.

I will have to explore this project file a little bit more. What is clear so far: The rig of the Animation system must be the exact same as the rig that will receive the information from the Animation system. There are many Nulls in the one set up that aren’t in the other. Names don’t matter, just the hierarchy needs to be spot on the same.
[More later.]

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Posted: 07 December 2019 10:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]  
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Hi stephen, (or is it Stephen?)

There are quite some problems, but there is also parts that are OK.

The mesh doesn’t show any problems, regarding normals or bad polygons, except the eyes should be inspected, there is something wrong.

The joints come obviously not from Cinema 4D, the orientation is off, hence the -90ยบ. IF you export anything, use the Y is up option. Cinema 4D, so far I can tell, can work with all joints axis orientations, but in some cases having them not in Z seemed to have limited some functionality.

The rig from object had keyframes. This might work in certain cases, but in the moment you move the Motion Clips, and there is perhaps a gap, the key frame animation starts to work again. This might show up for a single frame or longer, based on the gab, and can ruin the animation. transfer that animation as well into a clip.

As mentioned above, if you use Animation clips, the hierarchy should not differ. If you have more or less child objects might be not the problem, but if object are inside of the hierarchy where a new joint chain would start, things will be messed up. The example file I got from you have some joint chains for the same object parts in different positions in the hierarchy.

My suggestion: Use the animation clips that you have created, as long they ALL follow the same structure/hierarchy, and copy a joint hierarchy from it. This rig must be free of any keyframes, as it will be used to Bind the Character.. Now the Information will be congruent.

If you have the same hierarchy, but the joints are not a good fit in scale, please explore the Retarget Tag.
https://help.maxon.net/us/index.html#TRETARGET-ID_TAGPROPERTIES

As a side note, I know how tempting it is to start with something substantial. But I would explore anything that you will use with a very simplified set up. Just a few joints a cylinder and any procedure that you will use, can be tested quickly.

My best wishes for your project

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Posted: 08 December 2019 12:09 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]  
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Thank you so much for the detailed reply and taking the time to look at the project file. I will take a careful look at this and respond later if I need further clarification. Much appreciated!

Stephen

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Posted: 08 December 2019 02:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]  
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You’re very welcome, Stephen, sorry that there is no option to make it work quickly.

Have a great rest of your weekend

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Posted: 08 December 2019 05:19 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]  
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Dr. Sassi - 07 December 2019 10:31 PM

Hi stephen, (or is it Stephen?)

As mentioned above, if you use Animation clips, the hierarchy should not differ. If you have more or less child objects might be not the problem, but if object are inside of the hierarchy where a new joint chain would start, things will be messed up. The example file I got from you have some joint chains for the same object parts in different positions in the hierarchy.

My suggestion: Use the animation clips that you have created, as long they ALL follow the same structure/hierarchy, and copy a joint hierarchy from it. This rig must be free of any keyframes, as it will be used to Bind the Character.. Now the Information will be congruent.

If you have the same hierarchy, but the joints are not a good fit in scale, please explore the Retarget Tag.
https://help.maxon.net/us/index.html#TRETARGET-ID_TAGPROPERTIES

Okay, I did some work today without any success. I renamed all the same joints between the FBX motion capture and the model, however the model has additional joints under the Bones (forearm twist) and a structure for facial features. You can’t simply delete these as the model deforms I assuming due to weighting. But if I leave them, then it appears that breaks binding.

So that leaves your suggestion to copy the joint hierarchy from the FBX motion animation to the Boxer model. But the boxer model already has bones rigged and I’m unclear if you are talking about replacing the current bones or some procedure to have two rigs for the model? Is this a simply copy and paste or do you mean something else by “copy” i.e. mimic the design?

Can you clarify as this solution appears to be the only option?

And as far as retargeting, that seems to point more to targeting effects that mirroring animation keyframes but perhaps I’m misreading it so I don’t see how that fits into your suggestion.

Sorry for my lack of deep experience with Cinema 4D. I really only know the basics at this point.

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Posted: 08 December 2019 06:03 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]  
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Stephen,

The names of a rig are not as crucial as the hierarchy is.

There is the spine group that is entirely in a different place, comparing the two groups.

The rigs are quite different, and can’t see to make them in an easy way compatible.

The Animation System rig has 66 objects; the Boxer has 137 objects. This will not fly, to say it frankly.

Retargeting has the same requirements as the Animation System towards a target rig; it needs to fit.

As I mentioned: sorry to have not a more straightforward option to offer.

Cheers

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Posted: 08 December 2019 09:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]  
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P.S.: Here is a screenshot from an Xpresso transfer.

I chose to place only joints in the mix that have a representation in both. The Link List allows for simple sorting of the elements. More straightforward than to set up uncounted Constrain tags.

Screenshot:
https://www.amazon.com/clouddrive/share/IwoF7AWuNadIzIpesRKqeiSK2KbCrBd8KNcy4H5WEMo
Since your file was shared privately, I show only my part of the work.

I will try the PM option again to send you that file. IF you do not receive anything, please PM me (which works obviously) any email address where I can send it to. Again, sorry for the inconvenience.

Have a great start into your week.

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Dr. Sassi V. Sassmannshausen Ph.D.
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Posted: 24 December 2019 04:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]  
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Dr. Sassi - 08 December 2019 09:49 PM

P.S.: Here is a screenshot from an Xpresso transfer.

I chose to place only joints in the mix that have a representation in both. The Link List allows for simple sorting of the elements. More straightforward than to set up uncounted Constrain tags.

Screenshot:
https://www.amazon.com/clouddrive/share/IwoF7AWuNadIzIpesRKqeiSK2KbCrBd8KNcy4H5WEMo
Since your file was shared privately, I show only my part of the work.

I will try the PM option again to send you that file. IF you do not receive anything, please PM me (which works obviously) any email address where I can send it to. Again, sorry for the inconvenience.

Have a great start into your week.

I missed this last reply. I actually got this to work just fine by using constrain tags from a tutorial on Pluralsight - it was fairly straightforward after applying an offset and snapping the model to the FBX merged rig.

But there is a problem with the left eye of the model I cannot figure out. You can see the result of it here.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1eOtBTj_wU4N4S8t4EaxIcR5UhWw_55Ec

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Posted: 24 December 2019 08:58 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]  
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Hi Stephen,

As mentioned above, the rigs are quite different. The Rig with the motion has no eye joints at all.
In this way, the eye joints are just moving along with the Rig that is connected.
The one eyeball seemed lost in my screen-capture. Well, there are two spheres for each eye.

Typically, if the initial pose (T-pose, for example) is available, use it to reset the pose. This is usually done, by switching off the Skin, set the pose in the Weight tag, and Skin set to active again.
It was not set up correctly in the model I got. Which requires to delete the Weight, as well the Skin object. Place both Spheres tp the Joints for that specific eye and Bind both newly. Since it is only a single object with a Joint (Bn_Eye_L is used, and Be_Eye_L is not needed for the weighting), this is easily fixed as each vertex has 100% weight.

Happy Holidays.

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