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CV VRCam Orientation?
Posted: 13 January 2016 08:56 AM   [ Ignore ]  
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The CV VRCam looks like a neat tool and I have been familiarizing myself with it, but one problem I have experienced is that I cannot set the camera’s orientation. Position obviously works well, and I know you want to keep turning to a minimum with VR, but is there a way to set or rotate which direction is forward on my render? Thanks for the help!

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Posted: 13 January 2016 11:49 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]  
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http://www.cineversity.com/vidplaytut/render_virtual_reality_videos_with_cinema_4d_create_youtube_360_vr_video


==============

In the early ‘90s I was preparing content for a “scientific paper” about VR tech, so let me share this based on the options here in question:

For interactive orientation in an 360ºx180º you won’t direct the Camera in HPB, only in position. If you would allow for interactive rotation and additionally for directed rotation, most people will get sea-sick. Seriously. The only exception is given if you want to make people really uncomfortable during an adventure park ride…

One or the other. This phenomenon was first discussed (to my knowledge) in “Cyberspace” by William Gibson [1986] and has certainly not changed a lot since.

If you like to direct a 3D movie, you use a different option. For the VR[3D] in C4D, the world space is the absolute “orientation” for the resulting equirectangular[s], the 360ºx180º view.

If you must do this, you need to place everything under a Null Object, except the VR Camera, and animated the world (the content under the Null).

For a 3D movie, with a specific direction and motion you gain motion blur, which is not possible in 360ºx180º in C4D, but an essential part in directed motions and its representations.

This world representation or fixed orientation is easily seen by comparing renderings with differently rotated cameras, the representations do not change, if the position is the same.

The six cameras in the VR cam set up are there for your convenience only. You can use any perspective/orthographic [the position is the only key for the result] camera of course, the VR-results are not dependent on the set up.

All the best

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Dr. Sassi V. Sassmannshausen Ph.D.
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Posted: 13 January 2016 12:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]  
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Yeah… I thought about the Null workaround, but was hoping to avoid it. My current project is something akin to the ‘adventure park ride’ concept.

Viewer orientation is certainly more of a suggestion than an absolute direction, but setting the initial orientation is a useful tool.

I suppose it is good to know I wasn’t missing some functionality or doing it ‘wrong’, it’s just a limitation of the plugin.

I appreciate the feedback.

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Posted: 13 January 2016 12:35 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]  
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You’re welcome, davidjac! :o)

Typically, and digressing here from the topic, but directing the viewers attention and “eye” is done with the trade secrets of “Cinematography” ;o)

Change of brightness and/or movement inside the image is what attracts the audience. This is of course always in contrast to the given overall changes. E.g., if everything moves and “blinks” nothing pulls really attention.
The second layer is sharpness/contrast and saturation, but again, what ever was introduces before and has kept the audience’s mind busy or interested, will win the attention anyway.
Just pointing the camera to “something”, will often more disturb than guide. Watch B movies and you get the idea.

Being a film-maker since over a quarter century, let me add this: I love good movies, but I learn more from the bad ones… ;o)

Good luck.

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Dr. Sassi V. Sassmannshausen Ph.D.
Cinema 4D Mentor since 2004
Maxon Master Trainer, VES member

Photography For C4D Artists: 200 Free Tutorials. Texture, Panorama, HDRI, Camera Projection, etc.
https://www.youtube.com/user/DrSassiLA/playlists

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Posted: 13 January 2016 01:22 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]  
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Hi,

You should be able to just select the “CV-VRCam” Null Object and rotate that. Not quite as simple as animating your “Forward” camera, but not too much harder either.
Cheers,

Donovan

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Posted: 13 January 2016 01:26 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]  
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I’ve added a suggestion to our Issue Tracker, so there’s a decent chance that future versions will make this a bit eaiser.
https://bitbucket.org/cineversity/cv-vrcam/issues/1/child-cameras-under-fwd-so-that-its-easier

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Posted: 18 January 2016 08:25 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]  
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Joined  2008-11-29

I have tried rotating the null and it doesn’t work either.

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Posted: 18 January 2016 08:45 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]  
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Hi Davidjac,

As I wrote above, the camera is used only for the position (FOV [field of view] or orientation is not relevant for VR here), you can even switch to Orthogonal view (front, left, etc), it doesn’t matter for the rendering.

The only thing that you get while rotating the Null (the complete rig—as Donovan suggested correctly) is a preview, if you have the FWD camera active for the editor view in question. For rendering, again, it has no influence. All six cameras are for your inspection of the scene.

The rig has a “Stretched Sphere” attached to it for several reasons, e.g., kind of a safety zone, especially for the equirectagular, as it becomes quite “low-res” where the “poles” are. If you rotate the camera in pan or tilt mode, you lose that prediction, as the “Stretched Sphere” follows (and is so disconnect from the fixed orientation of the VR Renderings).

You can use any camera to do this work, but if you render a [top/bottom] equirectangular out, you have to live with this fixed orientation [in the renderings].

I have tried over the past decade + to create other ways for an equirectangular, e.g., with baking a sphere, but in the moment you want 3D - stereoscopic as well, you have a problem. Even the “white-papers” from Google, don’t get the full problem, but very close. See the PDF
https://developers.google.com/cardboard/jump/rendering-ods-content.pdf

The Key element for any successful panorama is a Lens, nodal point. Since we move our head not around a single eye, nor rotate the head around the center of the eyes, all panoramas produces are kind of a problem anyway. We rotate the head far away from the eyes. In other words all methods that can even produce remotely a good 360ºx180º will fail for this (six camera set up, baked sphere, QTVR, etc. In my photography work for 3D or my art I have shot a huge number of equirectangular images, so I think I have explored it. Check my tutorials about (link is below in my signature)

The impact of the nodal point is less with increasing the distance, hence the “Stretched Sphere”, and its usefulness again.

I have created a little clip, I hope that helps to get closer to solve this. It is one minute long and you can download it.
https://www.amazon.com/clouddrive/share/sunJP3mKFUVuwnfIbZMDLwMuKdHQivobqw9E6OYRkY0?ref_=cd_ph_share_link_copy

All the best

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Dr. Sassi V. Sassmannshausen Ph.D.
Cinema 4D Mentor since 2004
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Photography For C4D Artists: 200 Free Tutorials. Texture, Panorama, HDRI, Camera Projection, etc.
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Posted: 18 January 2016 04:33 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]  
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davidjac - 18 January 2016 08:25 AM

I have tried rotating the null and it doesn’t work either.

I thought I fixed this for 1.1 but maybe it’s been changed since. I’ve got several CV-VRCam enhancements in the works, and hope to get them out as soon as possible. The orientation control will definitely be part of that.

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Posted: 18 January 2016 04:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]  
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Rick ,  thanks as usual for the fast turnaround with the updates!

I think to enable it the option to rotate and animate the VR camera is certainly not a bad idea. I caution only the use of it, as a full visual immersive experience can cause sea-sickness, as the camera movement might disable the idea of control in an interactive environment. Which might overcast the use of VR in a critical way. Just my point of view.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_reality_sickness

All the best

P.S.: as shown in the one minute clip, for the editor view, the Null rotation of your rig works.

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Dr. Sassi V. Sassmannshausen Ph.D.
Cinema 4D Mentor since 2004
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Photography For C4D Artists: 200 Free Tutorials. Texture, Panorama, HDRI, Camera Projection, etc.
https://www.youtube.com/user/DrSassiLA/playlists

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Posted: 22 January 2016 09:22 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]  
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One workaround if you only need to change the rotation “to force” the viewer to see left/right, is to duplicate the video on premiere or ae and put it next to original video and make the composition the width of one video. Now by those two videos left-right you can center yourself where do you want the viewers center to be.

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Posted: 25 January 2016 01:53 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]  
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HenriS - 22 January 2016 09:22 AM

One workaround if you only need to change the rotation “to force” the viewer to see left/right, is to duplicate the video on premiere or ae and put it next to original video and make the composition the width of one video. Now by those two videos left-right you can center yourself where do you want the viewers center to be.

Yes, Henri S., thanks.This way or use the “Offset” Effect in Ae for example. Either way, certainly good for the a general orientation or any orientation change that is introduced inside the scene. Again, use it wisely to not harm the options and to avoid to create a bad reputation for VR ;o) [...just my very personal concern]

All the best

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Dr. Sassi V. Sassmannshausen Ph.D.
Cinema 4D Mentor since 2004
Maxon Master Trainer, VES member

Photography For C4D Artists: 200 Free Tutorials. Texture, Panorama, HDRI, Camera Projection, etc.
https://www.youtube.com/user/DrSassiLA/playlists

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Posted: 20 April 2016 08:26 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]  
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Rick Barrett - 18 January 2016 04:33 PM
davidjac - 18 January 2016 08:25 AM

I have tried rotating the null and it doesn’t work either.

I thought I fixed this for 1.1 but maybe it’s been changed since. I’ve got several CV-VRCam enhancements in the works, and hope to get them out as soon as possible. The orientation control will definitely be part of that.

Great!
I had the same orientation problem, version 1.5 solved it!
thnx!

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Posted: 22 July 2016 10:12 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]  
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Dear Rick,

I am using CV-VR Cam V1.5 and I’m experiencing huge camera orientation problems.
For example: As soon as I turn around the camera 180° (around the y-axis), the depth perception gets reversed, as if left and right channels are being swapped.

I tried all tricks in the book: Rotating the camera itself / rotating the null parent (rig) / creating a new null, put the whole rig inside, rotate the new null only / creating a new camera and put the rig inside etc.
Always the same results. All camera orientation changes result in poor, distorted and faulty stereoscopy. Only straight forward works fine.
Please, is there something I’m missing? It’s very important for my upcoming exhibition.

Thank you in advance and LOVE your plugin otherwise smile

Felix

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Posted: 22 July 2016 10:22 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]  
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Hi Felix,

Hard to debug w/o a scene file, but a workaround would be to place everything but your CV-VR Cam rig into a Null and rotate the Null 180 degrees.

- Donovan

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Posted: 22 July 2016 10:57 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]  
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Thank you Donovan.

I am using c4d r17. Attached you’ll find a clean demo scene, which will reproduce the bug (at least with my plugin).

Is there someone out there, who got the cam orientation change accurately evaluated, even with the camera pointing to reverse and or banking? If so, could you be so kind and provide me the exact workflow? Specific parent objects / what is being rotated etc.?

The workaround you suggest would work in a simple case, but I need to do extensive camera animation along a path (like a slow roller coaster), which will ultimately result in the POV facing backwards (which is not possible right now).

Thanks again, folks!

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OrientationProblem.zip  (File Size: 85KB - Downloads: 185)
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