Cineversity

Hi guys,

i was discussing this in another thread so thought it drop it in here officially.  Would be great to see a course or some advanced tutorials on the mograph module.  It seems to me like theres a bit of a knowledge gap when it comes to using mograph for production.  I remember the Paul Clements spot from a while back was an incredible use of mograph
https://vimeo.com/35145361

But it feels like this level of knowledge can only be found if your lucky enough to know the man himself.  Would love to see a course that tackles some ideas similar to what can be found here.  For example the effects at

30 secs
1 min 45
2mins 19

thanks

Hey Rich,

I will think about that, but it is not simple to create something that really elevates the combinatoric level of an artist, instead of just adding some cool tricks (which is more a dead end street from my point of view). If the basics are not savvy, none advanced tutorial will do any good.

I have done nearly hundred (!) MoGraph tutorials, with a lot of stuff in it. There is always something that might seemed new, but to be honest, it is mostly a combination of things I have discussed already.

Let me say that the link you have provided contains excellent examples, and don’t get me wrong, I do not want to make it small (it’s great) but if you take a closer look, it is mostly a clever combination of basic techniques. Again, great work.

The pure power of C4D is in the combination of the basic tools. It seems to me, that there is not anything really beyond that. It boils down to 95% to have the basic down. I mean really down, hence to take todays discussion about the Falloff. I’m always surprised when I get a big ohh or ahh when I place a simple Particle emitter into it as fall of source.

Sorry, I couldn’t find anything spectacular in that movie that is not based on the stuff we have discussed over the years in the Forum. It is about the basics, if they are not savvy, no advanced tutorial will give you anything, nothing on which you can build up, it will stick as a copy of something, Sorry to say that, but that is my impression after teaching MoGraph over 6 years by now. Get the basics. :o)

All the best

Sassi

Yes sure i guess the hardest part is breaking it down into those smaller components.  Not only that but learning it inside and out, and then remembering how to apply it in different situations - that would be key.  For example for the effect at 2 minutes 19, i can see that the logo has been fractured up, and then i imagine the little broken bits of the logo used an animated shader effector to drive the bit where they unfold - but how would you set the pivot of all those little pieces since each one would have to be different to rotate towards the center?

Think i’m gonna have to rewatch all those tutorials again : )

Hey Rich,

Thanks for playing. Perhaps PolyFX for that part. However, I’m grateful that you keep going. Which showed me that one key component that I have in mind is a given, to see and recognize things in given situations. It is like reading a book after a while simple (think of a five year old), but if you read a book in Japanese letters, this is different, you need to know each letter and its meaning. To just spoil to story is not a replacement for reading and experiencing that book. (I know the problems using examples, but I hope it helps to transfer my impression about it.)

Creativity is certainly not possible in a vacuum. To create unexpected solutions, one needs to know the parts of the game. Especially how far one can mis-use these parts and combine them. Exploration and combinatoric, even experimentally—or let say via playing. Which means, form the x numbers of parameters and options, you can combine an y number of solutions. Replace x with 1,000 and combine only 2 each time, you get close to a million options. There would be your request for advanced. Yes, to show you combination number 526,987 might motivate you, but it creates an illusion to be “advanced” or elevated, only to forgot taht you have 999,998 options more (if only combined two) Well, there is more. So the idea is to explain each little detail, then give some examples, and hope that you know more than an “abc” on the end, that you can imagine the story needed to fill a book.

Exactly here starts the forum, to be in interaction and keep going with your imagination, even your inner voice says, no idea how that could work. Forum is synergy, with the option to fill gaps. Anyway, the basics are needed. The more you stress to play with each option, the more you will recognize possibilities, if in a given video clip, or in your very own imagination.

New paradigm in education tell us that the least variable thing in education is to handle everyone in the same way, expect the creativity will solve everything. Right, “Divergent Thinking” is the key here. Which means to not take things as they were told and tough—not to take things as they have to be used in the right way. Just bend them, break them, squeeze them. See what happens.

I think “Creativity” and “Divergent Thinking” have an overlapping area (my very own theory here) and exactly in that “space” you might create like genius. I like to push people toward that state with my “stuff”. I like to destroy the idea of standardization, if one really wants to evolve from the (well) standards one has to overcome them. Art is anything but predictable. THERE is the problem, how to do that with tutorials alone? Especially with people who like to spend all the time focusing on anything else than learning the basics, hehe, I know, I’m horrible in that.

I try to find key elements in C4D, and things that will elevate everyone as much as possible, and I could start over to do all again, hehe, even knowing that I haven’t found the ultimate key yet. But I might believe that I dive deep into the things I do, and I don’t just share some “...” cool tricks and hope everyone gets excited. I have larger and higher targets than that. I hope I can create it for Cineversity one day in the way that I’m happy with it (I doubt it, as every step I do, teaches me new things) However, I’m happy to share.  ..and yes, I keep your request in mind. Until then, the Forum is hopefully a good remedy and I have to tell, I need all of your questions, as I do an analysis from time to time. (E.g., have you notice that tutorial requests and questions in the forum are not correlated to each other to 70-85%? I always think that is interesting—based on analysis of data from 2008 to 2011)

So, back to your question, see you over in the talk forum.

Thanks for your time

Sassi

Cool, thanks for the response.  I didn’t mean for any of that to come across as a complaint against the teaching - cineversity is amazing.  I’m actually rewatching the mograph tutorials again, its been a while and i’d forgotten quite a bit : / .  But i agree that without inspiration its impossible to be creative which is why i like lots of examples - shows you ways like you say of misusing the tools for a purpose you hadn’t thought of. 

I will get back on the forum : )

By the way, are you still doing sassi’s playground?  That thread was very useful.  Perhaps we could start up a new sticky thread for mograph inspiration where members could submit examples?

Hey Rich,

I did not took it as complain, not at all. I’m happy to read about wishes, and I keep anything in mind that is requested here. Your request gave me an option to expand a little bit on the problem to transfer knowledge in an efficient way. Knowledge is here of course only a start point.

In the past years I have gotten a lot of opinions, and I certainly can agree to anyones point of view, if I try to “walk in someone shoes”. I know how tempting it is to make cool stuff tutorials, but given a specific time, I would rather supply solid base material, and leave it everyone to play with the stuff and come up with cool stuff on their own. It makes the most sense to me.

Yes, where to start with advanced tutorials? I have gotten a wide variety of feedback about (positive and complains), it is to simple, too long, too fast, too steep…. etc. Starter training is simple, you start at zero roughly. Its not that difficult. Well, it is as well, as I try to give a good foundation, hence the “parameter by parameter” discussion (which drives some people nuts). I can say with certainty, I got all complains so far, even personal ones. I digest them and try to find the best way, without trying to get too boring. Hehe. Happens—I know.

The JET series, which I was announced to be available after Siggraph (waiting…!) will be faster and I guess advanced. I’m curious about the feedback then. Some tutorials there I have scripted word by word and payed someone to correct them on my own expense. No complain is new to me, but your request was nice and positive. No worries please.

Sassi’s Playground, I have to start it one day again, it was fun and found some friends, thanks for that. My current workload is based mostly creating the most comprehensive series I can think of about “Photography for 3D Artists”. Which has so far lead me to read 20 books cover to cover, and goes really into depth about all aspects. I think many people do not realize that there is a lot to learn and that making nice images will not lead to an understanding about this more technical task and challenge to supply this kind of image information. I think there are lots of gaps to fill, especially with HDR and for example Texture Capture. But as well Camera projection and “Panorama Photography”. I have over 100 new tutorials done for this series, but there is so much more to do and I have scripted hundred more. Besides producing films e.g., music videos, time is relatively short. BTW, the last music video will get its own “Making of” series here, all done with my own RED camera. All in all, I like to share practical experience first hand in the upcoming 400 tutorials from my side. Yes it is that much. Soon. :o)

Perhaps after that, I dive in again into MoGraph (I love that package, it was the first that I co-presented in 2006 at NAB in Vegas, NV), and yes, perhaps we need to test the ground with advanced stuff, also here cool is not always advanced, and advanced material might end up very technically… we will see. Advanced means to me to force you to think on a new level, not to copy complex stuff, but now I repeat myself, so that should be all for now.

Thanks again

Sassi

Thank you.  Am looking forward to seeing all your new tutorial : )

Thanks Rich, for taking the time!