Cineversity

I built a latch mechanism and animated it using joints so it closed in 0 to 45 frames. I then replicated this latch mechanism in six separate building block models. They all worked as planned. I then assembled a structure using XRefs of the building blocks latching into one another in sequence, spacing them out in the timeline so they were synchronized. It worked exactly as planned. Then I saved the project and closed it. The next day I opened the project to set up some camera moves and discovered the XRefs had moved on the timeline so they all started at the same point - from 0 to 45 frames - and not spaced out and synchronized any longer.

I used XRefs because the building blocks were being revised and updated at the same time the assembly project was being developed. The blocks are used multiple times in the same sequence, and I wanted to avoid refreshing multiple models multiple times during development, and I thought that’s what XRefs were for.

I also thought I could use the XRefs like actors, and bring them in and out as needed. Sort of like an Instance. But it appears the XRefs default back to their own individual timelines, not the timeline they are imported into.

Or am I missing something fundamental?

Unfortunately I can’t share the project due to confidentiality. So the description is all I can offer.

Hi mford610,

Please have a look here:
Project file
https://www.amazon.com/clouddrive/share/39erC5zqY6a54oNuJ4vawwnbrPEHs2Bzd0N0dkohp0V

Open the CV2_S22_drs_20_ANxr_11.c4d
Compare it to the preview.mp4 if you get the same result.

Let me know what works or what doesn’t work for you.

Cheers

Yes, this works as I expected XRefs to work - that is, move the XRef keyframes to the desired position on the master timeline and play in sequence. However, in my project the keyframes all slide back to the original start frame of the source models. They don’t stay spaced out as yours do.

Is there a checkbox I’m not clicking? That makes the changes “stick?”

Hi mford610,

I have used the Offset here. Which moves the Keyframes, and at the moment you change something in the source files, it will receive the same Offset based on the parameter in the yellow frame (Image below).

Your reply shows me now what you are doing. You have not moved the keys with the Offset, you do it manually.

Think about this from the viewpoint of doing the next change. You have loaded a source file (AKA Reference) as XRef into your master file. Then moved all the Keyframes manually around. Now you set a new keyframe in the source file. How would the master scene knows where to put this key. In sync with the source file frame, or hope to get ti right by setting it to the average or your changes? (average, as you could have moved only half of those keys, etc.)

Use the Offset, so things are organized, and you can see what is the set up for each, at any time.

Is this working for you?

Enjoy.

Yes, I think I understand. A little bit of accountant work will keep things orderly. I will give it a try

Exactly, mford610.

XRef turns the receiving scene into an Authoring project file: the master file.

Yes, there are ways to manipulate the XRef inside the Master Scene, but I would avoid this at all costs, as it counteracts the idea of keeping the Source/Reference files as they are delivering the information.

Made changes in the Attribute Manager, like Offset, this will be stored in the Master file and set the incoming information accordingly. Those changes are stored in the Master file.

My best wishes.

The attributes in the object tab of the XRef file are grayed out - until I click off “Loaded.” Then the options become active. Clicking it back on seems to confuse it (or confuse me). The icon turns red and then clicking the buttons off and on don’t seem to matter anymore.

This from the Help tab:

“LOADED: Use this Option to load or unload the objects linked to that XRef object from the scene. This is useful to keep the master scene file size to a minimum, while not losing the changes you made to the referenced objects.

When objects are unloaded, they also disappear from the viewport.

The XRef icon will turn red (also when you create a new, empty XRef object”

I can’t say this is terribly helpful. This part got my attention:

“REFERENCE: The XRef Object will assume the name of the reference file (as long as the object has not been manually renamed in the Object Manager). For example, if the reference file is named Hajopei.c4d the XRef Object will also be named Hajopei. This lets you quickly see which file is referenced by which object.

Clicking the load button next to the Reference link, you can load a reference scene. Upon selection of the scene, you will be asked if you want to Update (yes) or Replace (no), the referenced scene. The difference here is that if you update the scene, any changes you made to the referenced objects (you moved a referenced object in the master scene, for example) will be kept when reloading the referenced file. If you decide to replace the referenced scene, any changes made to referenced objects in the master scene will be lost, resetting the referenced objects to their initial state.”

I have renamed all the XRefs to match their place in the sequence. The master file is LATCH, and I renamed them to be LATCH_1, LATCH_2, etc. Does this break something important?

The part about updating or replacing the reference file seems to suggest the changes I make to timing could stick if I update it rather than replace it. But then I don’t understand any of this so my interpretation is more a guess.

Hi mford610,

I really checked your problem, in many ways, in the hope of answering your question. Missing the scene file limits the success, perhaps. The only time I can reproduce it is when I unload and load from a different source and do this a few times. Then I have under the XRef several animation files, and while they have the same name, things get confusing. Again, it takes a while to get to that point.

Checking it with a Master file saved to one drive while requesting the animation Reference from a different one.
https://www.amazon.com/clouddrive/share/q3HF5ZUFU4NNvVzDzDem4wRyev3fK5MiKJr5saB7iFy

Go to Create> XRef> XRef Manager, and check if you have more entries than needed.
The Same in the Object Manager, twirl the hierarchy open and check if there are more than one Reference (hierarchy)
https://help.maxon.net/us/index.html#DXREFMANAGER-ID_CA_XREFMANAGER_GROUP_REFS

Perhaps search system-wide (all drives) about Hajopei.c4d and name each with an extra number Hajopei_01.c4d, or use a new name and make a fresh new test scene.

Without the scene file, I can only direct you to the support, if nothing of the above helps.

Let me know if I miss something.

Cheers

thank you for your effort on this! Very helpful in understanding what I’m up against. I am coming to the conclusion that perhaps XRef isn’t the best approach to my particular situation. I need a lot of individual variation within the master file, and it seems that’s what XRef is designed to prevent. Finding work-arounds makes it all more difficult - and it’s difficult enough already!

I thought the XRef approach would be a good way to streamline using the latch animation over and over without rebuilding it. But since I need to be able to stretch and shorten that sequence within the master file, depending on the placement, I am sort of turning XRef against itself. So I think making the XRefs editable and then synchronizing them manually will be the shortest path to success. Even if I have to give up live updates.

Thank you for clarifying the issues. Always learn something here.

Hi mford610,

As usual, it is not the ideal situation to give advice without a scene file.
However, perhaps you can create an innocent dummy. I send you an upload link, and I have a look into it.

I can’t shake the feeling that Animation Clips might be the best way, Perhaps a MoGraph Set up with Set and/or Blend Clones.

I really can’t tell.

Let me know what you would like to do next.

Have a great day