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Environment
Posted: 20 July 2018 08:44 AM   [ Ignore ]  
Total Posts:  48
Joined  2017-09-19

I (still) have some problems with the environment.
I’d looked at the tutorials about hdri images.
In a new project thats no problem, but when i try to make some environment in my own project, it’s not the same:-(

Hope you will help me again.

The first camera animation needs a better environment.


https://www.dropbox.com/sh/pj9cqh3um41iv83/AABkoWDNJ1YAxCSk9zVuXeZga?dl=0

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Posted: 20 July 2018 02:40 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]  
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Hi Annet,

When you save a file, so I can look at:
Main Menu>File> Save Project with Assets…

The key file in your question is missing. I assume that is the Environment/Context? If so…
HDR001_4000x2000.hdr (HDRI_01)

Let me start with, HDRi is only producing problems (and misses advantages) if you don’t use Motion Blur, or Depth Of Field, or Global Illumination. IF you don’t use any of them, use a 16bit/inter/channel instead. Please note, that the Background image should be in agreement with the middle/fore-ground. It is even often practice to have a low resolution HDR image for Light information, and a larger resolution for the background. But with your length of aniamtion and as you mentioned previous, you are interested in short rendertimes, I would stick with 16bit/channel - integer images for 360ºx180º on a Sky object.

For HDRi: All I can tell you now is, that you should avoid the hdr [radiance] format at any time for professional work. It is not a 32bit/float per channel format. The only useable idea I have about is to store (if at all) high brightness values, like ten times the sun. HDR radiance has 8bit per channel, but four channels. I try to get this format since over a decade out of projects, but since it is so limited (e.g., in color values) people give it away. It might be good for GI, but even there it is very questionable. Yes, they are small, and that is perhaps the only reason why MAXON even put them into the Content folder. I never got any other idea about it.

If you want quality work, use OpenEXR. But OpenEXR is just a container, to just save an “.hdr” into it, will not do anything good at all. People do it anyway, I know.

Besides that, the size, if given correctly in the name tells me already, that it was not provided by someone who works a lot with it, and that it is way too small. Your camera has a field of view of 53.13º, the default. This is roughly 1/7th of a full circle (360º). IF you take now the 4000 pixels and divide this by 7 then you get something around 571 pixels for your camera view, given an infinity sized sphere. The minimal quality rule is that one should have for camera rendered backgrounds at least 1.5 times the resolution, to get an at least acceptable quality, around 857. Since background pixels never match rendered pixels. Your setting for the final output is 1280h and that is already much bigger than you have in the HDRi. If you go to HD or the current new standard UHD, then the background would look very pixelated. The 4000x2000 is just enough for SD 720x576 BT.601 for example. Since hdr can contain super high values the anti alias might screw up as well in some areas.

Another part that is not often discussed is the color space and the gamut of HDRi. Often one gets an image that is not calibrated. The only real value that one can get is a 50% or 0.18 gray-card reading. There is not defined black point, not a white point. A white point in 8bit/channel or 16bit/channel integer is only the point where things clip, and that sets all information to equal, hence no saturation and the result is white. If lower it would be gray.
This assumption of white leads often to misleading ideas that there is a white point, and people set it that way, to get a print for example. In High Dynamic Range, that white might be the sun, but one can’t calibrate an image with values million times below the sun with the sun. Hence my practice to use a gray card, the only agreed fixed value at all. Then one doesn’t have to deal in a correction [sic] into the scene.

If you don’t get a gray card nor a “MacBeth Chart” with the image[s], as extra image, don’t use it, or use it very carefully. Anything else is from my point of view a risk.

So quality in, quality out.

I have made a whole series about HDRi, see link below. And yes, I’m pretty picky about quality in photography. wink

I will wait for the image.

All the best

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Dr. Sassi V. Sassmannshausen Ph.D.
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Posted: 20 July 2018 03:08 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]  
Total Posts:  48
Joined  2017-09-19

Oke, thanks for the information.
I thought i’d saved my project with assets, probebly i did something wrong.

Well, in the project i will send you now, i’ve got the same problem (it’s almost the same project).
I restart my project when things go wrong, i wil start with the previous version.

The problem is:  when i start a totaly new project, the HDRI tutorials work fine. When i try to do it on my own project, it seems to go wrong.

Tomorow i will go and look again at your links, thanks for your information.


https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ej45e7eak10aia9/AABuhXjSBtNCRZI7hetxan9Ba?dl=0

(I hope the project works).

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Posted: 20 July 2018 03:22 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]  
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I have no background image showing up when I render this project.

What do I miss? When I delete all unused Materials, then only an HDRi from the refections of the table is left. Note: This HDRi is from the Content Browser and shouldn’t be in a public download link. Would you mind deactivate the download now? Thank you.
Since this is pretty much the file I had send you back via PM , I can’t see any change toward a background set up. Would you mind to tell me what you wanted to do?

I’m really happy to look into all files, share what ever I can, but I can’t see any signs of a set up here, please share something more. A sketch, a discribtion, anything. Thanks.

All the best

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Dr. Sassi V. Sassmannshausen Ph.D.
Cinema 4D Mentor since 2004
Maxon Master Trainer, VES, DCS

Photography For C4D Artists: 200 Free Tutorials.
https://www.youtube.com/user/DrSassiLA/playlists

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Posted: 20 July 2018 05:46 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]  
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P.S.: Here is a one minute screen capture, giving some pointers for 360ºx180º (equirectangular)images and what to expect.

This 29K image is a reduction of my normal size I work in as an artist. 29K is an equivalent of a ~440MP camera. It wouldn’t even create the needed resolution for an UHD delivery, given the defaults in the scene. But in most cases HD should work just fine, in the given parameters mentioned.  I have made a four digit amount of those in the past two decades, and, e.g., 40K over a decade ago was a long process… done it for feature film opener. Pro-Cameras had only 20MP sensors back then. Today it is so much simpler, anyone can do it. Just give a shot, literally.

I also would like to stress the point, that from the raw development on, at least an AdobeRGB color space should be used. The very limited sRGB or BT.Rec.709 are for out put use only (to selected sources), but during production the gamut available should be used, to gain the best quality. WE are moving into a time where all the color spaces that are limited will show up dull very soon. That might kill some client relation ships down the road. So, quality in, quality out is the key.

Btw, since I measure for 360ºx180º the scene more often than not with a light meter these days, I can say that I occasionally do not have not really a need to shoot full HDR at all, the cameras are so good these days. If the scene doesn’t have the need for it, the cleaner blacks would be the only reason to do so, but that comes with a hefty price tag. The 360/180s are certainly one of the most damaging shoot situations I can think of (speaking of high resolution), so a very carefully planed out set up is key.

Screen capture.
https://www.amazon.com/clouddrive/share/bJfqFrKi4cfhXXk78oFhIvBLGuL7dLrCfLhnkokTyXX

Cheers

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Dr. Sassi V. Sassmannshausen Ph.D.
Cinema 4D Mentor since 2004
Maxon Master Trainer, VES, DCS

Photography For C4D Artists: 200 Free Tutorials.
https://www.youtube.com/user/DrSassiLA/playlists

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