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Camera issue
Posted: 17 July 2018 05:52 AM   [ Ignore ]  
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Joined  2017-09-19

Hello Dr. Sassi,

I’m having troubles with a smooth camera animation.
When i look tutorials, it seems “easy” to set up a simple camera animation.
Thats all I want to do.
When I go into my own project, do the same it looks not that good.
I tried linear and step (i think linear is the best?), several camera’s, but still not happy with the results.

At some point I was happy with the camera animation, but the render looks bad, because the floor is flickering☹
Maybe i need another floor? But I am happy with this one.

When you look into my file, you’lle see i tried to go to the book.
At ca. 900 frames i want to look into my book, after that i will setup a vibrate (i guess).
Before the audience will look and go into the book, they have to see te card with candles.

Maybe you can help me again? Or give me some tips for my project?

Thanks again. 

Annet

https://we.tl/H1vt5IPPC8

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Posted: 17 July 2018 01:15 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]  
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Hi Annet,

The first thing to do if the camera is not smooth, render out a preview, to see if the animation was set wrongly or if the screen can’t follow (refresh) in the way you like)

Perhaps this might be a good option for your animation:
https://www.cineversity.com/vidplaytut/the_camera_morph_tag
There might be a lot to say about it, its use and how it might affect your motivation to learn to do it manually. But it is very comfortable.

I’m happy to look into your file, I have send you an upload link. Dropbox or Amazon are the only file options I use these days, sorry burnt fingers with other options.

The flickering with the texture is not based on camera move (though, I have no file from you here), please have a look here if that helps:
https://www.cineversity.com/vidplaytut/3_step_strategy_to_remove_or_reduce_texture_animation_jaggies

Spline, Linear or Step are interpolation methods. I highly doubt that Step is useable for camera movement (quick replacements, but not movement).

Linear is not better than Spline, it not the interpolation method that is good or bad. If you need a camera that feels was and will be in motion, linear might be good. For natural camera moves, spline is more recommended. But also with Spline, one could set up a linear or even an complete un-natural camera move.

When you say frame 900, that is with 30fps 30 seconds of animation. Yes I’m aware that some movies (The Russian Arc) run 90 minutes without cut, but it takes so many filmic options away, and complicates only the set up. Anyway, you asked for technical advice, so you might just ignore the suggestion above.

I will wait for your file.

All the best

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Posted: 17 July 2018 04:03 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]  
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Thanks for the files, Annet.

I just saw in this very moment that you uploaded two more file. So I will check these as well, Talk to you after lunch.

Please, when you save a project to upload it it, use the Main Menu> File>Save Project with Assets… (do not in any way rename any file ever. I have to rename all the image files, as mentioned last time. Renaming them breaks the connection)

Since I do not give critiques here (even the following might sound that way, but I don’t know how else to describe/ask it), I need your input what you want. With vibrate you mean something like this “Ken Burns Effect”? I certainly will help you with that, even I think it is the last things I would do in my work. Sorry about that, but camera move should be motivated, not an effect for the sake of having something moved. You need to understand you audience, what they want to see. IF you start out with giving them all there is to see, you might split them in half, on group like to see the picture and the candles, the other one the album. Half of your audience will be impatient with your work, based on the camera. Each image in the album might have a different point of interest. …for example.

I have problems to tell you just technically something that has a need to be motivated. I hope that makes sense. To get something good, you need to tell me more.

Cheers

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Cinema 4D Mentor since 2004
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Posted: 17 July 2018 05:52 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]  
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In post #1, I provided an link to an tutorial. This is about the Camera Morph.

I guess it helps to clear the pre-production needs. My suggestion, and that is just an idea based on too little input. You have three places to go. The candles with the card, the three images outside of the album and the album itself.

Find three cameras that give you each time only the view to one group. Otherwise you create interest to the other parts. You want to give the attention to the parts in the picture, not distract the audience. Yes, we live in a “next, next, next” world , and having tested G+ for example over many years, I think most people scroll and click (pretty much an image per second.) My observation and evaluation of the statistics, over thousand images, 80K+ subscribers and 340M views. The way we watch things has certainly to do how much interest we have, what we know already and the idea that something more exciting might be next. Please, follow your own ideas about. Perhaps you have offscreen commentary, which would explain the duration and puts things in a different context. If there is a audio commentary, can you get some pointers from it to connect to the images, to details, etc.

If you have three camera’s and the Camera Morph Tag established, you can go via slider to the animation, and get very quickly a feel for it. I would perhaps exclude the field of view from the list and adjust this before and after each test run. If that is in sync with the camera position, it might look too much programmed.

My personal taste, as mentioned, avoid the vibrate tag. IF the movement is not motivated by content, it is annoying, and perhaps more than that: counterproductive.

I will wait for more input. As with the previous camera move question
https://www.cineversity.com/forums/viewthread/2890/
if the camera is just moved, it avoids to create production value. Again, to just move things around doesn’t mean that it creates a benefit. What works in one scene - might be counterproductive in another. The simplest way to understand camera move, is to identify the distance of the camera with the distance one would have to a subject/object in a movie. The camera is the audience. It is more complex than that, more than just pull an F-Curve.
I work with cameras all my live and the older I get the more I learn, as the best cinematographers tell, they get better, but they never stop learning. So, take your time, it is a language, not a gimmick.

But yes, to get a nice camera move for your scene, I have hopefully given you enough pointers and instructions. But I can give you a paint by numbers, you are the camera operator/artist. Tell me what you want, and I can assist you (with pleasure)

Cheers

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Posted: 18 July 2018 02:02 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]  
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Hi Annnet,

The file and screen capture below is just a small example to explain the functions.

What I found was needed for your scene was something that allows for a a camera moving back and fore (left and right) in the album. But also camera positions for the candle then cards, etc.

One of the major disadvantages of the Camera Morph is the dependency on the exact number of cameras. If keyframes are set, and a new camera is added to the list, all keyframes go out of sync with the cameras.

Since the album pages have a huge part in the whole animation, I created a subset of a Morph Camera. The resulting camera from that morph was called Sub Camera. This camera is then part of the Main Camera Morph set up.

Where the Sub Morph Camera sits, is clear based on the position in the list. IF three cameras are in the list, and the sub morph is in the middle, then the slider is 50% for this sub morph camera. IF you have four, and it is the second, it is 25%.

However, the results of the sub Camera Morph will influence the whole outcome, more or less. So, keep that value at one position if not in direct use.


In the example below, I designated the camera 4 and 5 to be that subset, resulting in the sub morph camera.
So at any time the main Camera Morph is at 100% in this set-up, the sub camera is fully present.
The sub-camera here with two cameras is only an example, it could be a set of cameras.

In this way the set up is a little bit more complex, but the management becomes perhaps a little bit easier.

Scene and screen capture.
https://www.amazon.com/clouddrive/share/B8T0kwevzAdnAcqNtE6cDAjPFURi5FQnVueUwBJW5w9

The scene file of yours, that I have set up and send to you, certainly needs fine tuning., but I hope It gives an idea what could be a concept to do it. Of course I had only place-holders in the file, so I would do it differently if I would have had the original images.

I hope that helps.

My best wishes for your project

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Dr. Sassi V. Sassmannshausen Ph.D.
Cinema 4D Mentor since 2004
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Posted: 18 July 2018 06:30 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]  
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Hello Dr. Sassi

Thank you very much for your help.
I send you one file (example) in the private message.
With the tips above, and the example you made, I think I can go forward.
With the example video, you know what kind of animation I am looking for.
I will take a good look into that and wish at some day i can do it on my own:-)


Annet

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Posted: 18 July 2018 02:53 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]  
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HI Annet,

Sounds good. I will describe for the sake of the forum in blurry words (not giving your USP [unique selling point] away): The audience for your work is very defined, the mood is specific and the place where it is shown is clear. As a filmmaker, I do not have that kind of clear audience profile for my work. So, there is a lot you know and what you can do with it.

As in all portrait based documentaries, the face is the main focus (for the audience and for the camera), besides the relationships among the people. These are the “key-positions” for your camera. The main work is to find the best option to transition between those.

Since this is a work that has a repetition in itself as well as per new project, the way you animate as well the way you adjust a set up for a new project should be of interest.

In Cinema 4D you have a lot of options to do that and each “flavor” of animation will provide you with different advantages.

• Single camera animation (All key frames are on the camera, a huge pile, and only the “Reduced Modification Mode” can ease you adaption or adjustments.

• Rig based camera animation (Each Null Object in a hierarchy has a specific function, as the top one is for the overall positioning, and the next for sub movement, while the third could handle the qualities called “subjective camera”.

• Camera Morph (The fastest way for a “programmable” yet “easy adjustable rig”, with little learning time, but smooth movements, very specific, but easily destroyed if a new camera is entered after lots of key frames were set.)

• Animation Clip. (The most professional for repetitive work or for an easy adjustment of pacing, transitions and such. It has a little learning curve, but each element is reusable, as long as the camera/rig stays the same, it is more like filmmakers think.)

• There are more options, like Camera along a Spline, or other animation methods, but if you are in for a long run with this work, I would not recommend this.

Let me know if there is any other question, I’m happy to look into it.

My best wishes for your projects!

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Dr. Sassi V. Sassmannshausen Ph.D.
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Posted: 19 July 2018 08:29 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]  
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Thanks for all the tips, that will help me forward with my project.
I guess with the single camera, i will make the animation.
The camera morph is also a good way to create animation, thanks for the tips.

I’ve made one animation as you can see in my project. After the card, i will try to go into the book.
Thats my next step to make.

But, the next problem i see, is the environment.
Is that something i have to create myself, or is it possible to create something with ‘the background’ or ‘the environment’ or ‘the sky’ options?
I hope you can help me forward with the new problem:-(


Thank you very much!


https://www.dropbox.com/sh/pj9cqh3um41iv83/AABkoWDNJ1YAxCSk9zVuXeZga?dl=0

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Posted: 19 July 2018 01:22 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]  
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Hi Annet,

Typically I work with one camera as well, but I have not often any take longer than a few seconds. But each project is different and everyone develops a different camera language over time. I’m certainly convinced that the Animation clip option is something for your projects that would work nicely. It creates a library of motions.
However, a long single camera move has its own challenges, and often a camera rig is an advantage. It works like three nulls in a Hierarchy, as described above, but also the Reduced Modification Mode should be explored.
In all cases, a good understanding of the F-Curve[s] and how they affect the animation is THE key skill for a single camera animation.

When you watch your own movies, check where your eyes are going. Invite others to do that little test. Cinematography, in a nutshell is, how to lead the audience eyes. If you bring into the scene anything new, or have anything moving/changing in the background, this will pull attention. Your projects are the opposite of what we normally think of Motion Graphic (MTV, fast pacing etc), roughly said. You like to introduce calm peaceful moods, and support people even while watching it.

Environment is a longer theme and should not be mixed in this thread. You can check out the work and tutorials in the link below. A friend in The Netherlands creates the DutchSkies since years, and they are used for environment. I guess you need something more in-side. There are two options Camera mapping of a given room or a 360ºx180º to have everything covered, even not in the camera view directly, but think of reflections and perhaps lighting. Anyway, this should be discussed in a new thread.

My best wishes for your next projects

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Dr. Sassi V. Sassmannshausen Ph.D.
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Posted: 11 August 2018 03:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]  
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Hello Dr. Sassi,

I still have troubles with the ‘smooth’ camera animation.
In de privite messase (a part of) my project.

The problem is: At first i want to go (slow) to the card. Then go slow to the book.
When I am ínto the book, i to go from left to right (just the way you did before for my project, but then much more slowly).
At first i want to use ‘a normal’camera, but after that i think the morph camera is the best (to go from left to right).
The problem is: by every page i want to ‘wait’ a while to see the picture. But i don’t want the animation to stop.
There are several options, but it seems i cannot figure out the best way to animate my book.

When I use the ‘stage’ option; i cannot seems to make a combination from the ‘normal camera’ and the ‘morph camera’.

When you look at my project, you see some camera animation (with 1 camera). This is the way I want to have the animation, but i don’t like the ‘stops’ when he goes from left to right. With the F curve, i cannot solve that problem.

Can you give me some tips how to make a camera animation more ‘smooth’, without stops and with enought time by each photo?

Thanks.

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Posted: 11 August 2018 06:25 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]  
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Hi Annet,

To master cinematography is certainly not a simple task. A question of a technical storage and manipulation of a camera movement is, on the other hand, straight forward, and yes, it can be simple or complex. However, any key-frame that expresses the position or rotation will fine an expression in an F-Curve. With that, the change of the F-curve, simple or complex is possible. nevertheless, the key-question is here is that a clear idea what one wants to “tell with pictures” is needed. Smooth is just an expression and doesn’t lead to what you are looking for, as it misses out the observation one has to do to get the “WHY” of the whole movement. I would love to just tell you, read this book about Cinematography and you will be good. Well, having read any book about the subject since many decades that I was able to get my hands on (aka lots off), there is no single book that would deliver here the simple key philosophy quickly (or the one size fits all idea), if at all.

Take an album, or a coffee table photo-book. Observe yourself, how do you watch it. Seriously! How is your head moving, how are your eyes moving, perhaps how is your body moving. How does it differ when an image is boring or very interesting? This is a non-synchronized choreography of all the parts, to say the least. Simplified: This is expressed in “Point Of View” (where the camera is) and “Point Of Interest” (where the focus is set.)  The difference between both (POI/POV) is an ratio or expression that can alter the feel of your animation dramatically. Again this is simplified.

In an album like yours, (I haven’t seen all the content,) where the eyes are resting and moving, you might find that those movements are independent from the eye/head placement/movement. Your head could move to the other page, perhaps to stay in an rhythm but the eyes are glued perhaps on a detail of the previous and not moving to the next, which leads to a different animation of the POI and the POV. Here is exactly what makes something smooth (not really a term that I would use for this, as it is too wide), if the camera represents that anxiety to see the next page but the passion (at the same time) to sticks on an image, if that difference is in sync with the audience, it might be perceived as smooth, if you do it in the opposite way, it is horrible to the audience. Why horrible? Because it doesn’t represent the idea of what should happen.

What is “smooth” for one, is rough or even stochastic for someone else. Again, music is a healing and driving force here, as it set a rhythm. The content of the images and the audience creates something very specific here, it fits to one case, but not to the next. All of that leads to a camera move, that can be cinematic or dynamically (what most people would identify as motion graphic, (which is a correct definition or not, based on the artist/target).

Speed, is the translation of this, my suggestion in one previous file, as mentioned before, was based on the speed of the flapping pages and “my” limited idea of your target audience and content. As mentioned, speed is not the key problem here. Speed is only how far apart certain values are stored in the time line (means horizontally), as well as dynamically, i.e., how far these values are apart (vertically) in conjunction with the time. Just use the ripple tool and stretch it, all is slower. No problem here, just a simple fix.

The F-curve, to come back to technical parts, works in a similar way: The more the curve is towards a vertically orientation – the faster the change, a complete flat F-curve represents no change. Anything between is what we can adjust and in F-curves, that can be changed gradually, from no movement to nearly sudden change. Sudden would be “Step” as interpolation, but with curves, there is no 100% vertical. So, anything can be achieved in F-curves, speaking of position and rotation.

To summarize: Our attention (POI) is often not in sync with our body (as in POV). If both are set properly in an animation, and perhaps most likely out of direct synchronicity, the movement might never stop, even the POI seems to be focused on a small area. IF the POI slows down, the POV might move, and vice versa. While not disturbing the observation of details.

The example below will be not to your liking in terms of speed, for reasons I have laid out in a very detailed way above. However, it shows the flow of movement that is created when the described idea from above is translated in cinematography, which is defined by most artist of that field as “leading the eye” and “translating the story into pictures”. It is a complex language, which is mastered when it becomes invisible to the audience, but transfers the story that has to be told in the best way.

Scene file
https://www.amazon.com/clouddrive/share/PXN0EzBRGPP9iePdYLSMNo7kKxhNTR3XGVoxDzpuMXQ

My suggestion, Take a cube and animate it, then use the F-Curve and change via the handles the curves and see how that changes the speed of the cube from start to finish. Do this until any prediction you make shows up on screen. To do this with a camera set up, like the one above, seems to much, when F-Curves are not really stored in one’s muscle memory.

My best wishes.

P.S.: A short clip 0-25 sec the adjustment of a curve, and 25-60 sec the POI/POV of the scene file from above.

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Dr. Sassi V. Sassmannshausen Ph.D.
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Photography For C4D Artists: 200 Free Tutorials.
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