Clip 2 shows promise, and having downloaded the file I can manipulate the mesh in an intermediate state,
at least at the top of the mesh, where the relationship between the joint and the mesh remains static.
If you try to manipulate the bottom part (where the mesh has moved) - right at the bottom, you cannot move it
with the Sculpt tools!
I’m wondering if this is where the problem lies. Can you try with your example, on your system, to sculpt the mesh
at the very bottom of the tube where it has been shifted out of position by the joint rotation?
Anything that is not moved by a Joint, is sculpt-able, and things that has been moved by a joint aren’t. I had set up a cylinder and joints/skin, nothing else, to start exploring your findings. No Pose Morph or other objects/deformers.
It feels like the sculpting tool is searching for the original point-location, as the tool shows the “brush” on that specific (original) place, but has nothing to work on.
In some instances it finds a point and moves then “some” geometry, which I did in my exploration, but thought its a glitch in my new screen. Exploring it closer, in the moment I disable the Skin, the Sculpt tool works again on everything and the changes are kept, even after the Skin is working on the mesh. As this is not really interactive, I’m not certain if that will work for you. I haven’t explore the further steps, PoseMorph, etc, as it seems to be clear when it starts.
Thanks for confirming the issue. I thought (and hoped) it might be something I was missing, but as you say
the Sculpt tools seem to be using some kind of ‘vertex cache’ perhaps, which stores an original version
of the mesh.
You can of course sculpt it when the ‘Skin’ deformer is off, but if the skin is on and the joints have moved the points
sufficiently far away from their origin, the Sculpt tools no longer have any effect. Due to the general ‘fuzziness’ of
the sculpt tools the problem is a little bit hidden, until you know what you are looking for!
Indeed there is a sort of ‘ghost’ effect where you can paint with the Sculpt tools in the location where the
mesh was (before deformation) and it will move the points! This of course is completely unusable as it stands.
The only other option was to activate the ‘Post Deformations’ tick box, and I thought this would cure the problem
by updating the vertex positions to the new locations, but unfortunately, this is where the ‘Polygon Explosion’
problem occurs. I don’t know whether you have tried this, but even on your example I cannot get it to work.
In the case of my character rig, where the leg has been raised in a posed position, the points have obviously been
moved so far away from their original position the Sculpt tools are ineffective, and the ‘Post Deformations’ tick box
causes a ‘Polygon Explosion’ again!
I’m afraid that there seems no other solution at present other than my rather lengthy ‘work around’ with ‘Correction’
deformers - and dragging these into the Pose Morph tag as an eventual storage location. It does work but it’s
a bit more complicated than I would hope.
It’s been a bit of an epic to get this far (nearly midnight here now!), but if you have any further ideas, or a flash of
inspiration please let me know! (It would be interesting to hear what other readers results are also).
My best guess is that the Sculpting Tag comes only after subdividing, that the newly stored points are not stored as extra point on top of the old ones—index wise—and so the new index numbers of the points mess up the whole “weighting—joint” relation ship.
Sorry about the extra time this exploration has cost you. The screen I use now is an iMac 5K and to have a normal icon size with C4D it is set to 2,560, which I thought caused the trouble. I bought it to have a new Mac for Team Render set ups. Anything else here is a little bit old, in computer terms. So, my fault.
I had hope to find something faster for you. You’re method needs a workflow manager, one click and sculpt—one click and animate again. I hope the suggestion you made to MAXON will show results.
I’m sure you’ve provided the best support you can with this, unfortunately it’s a complex topic and
it looks like only a software update will cure (or help) with this issue. I have at least found a temporary
solution which has come about through our discussion, so that’s a bonus!
Hope this has been of benefit to other users. Must sign off for today!
I hope I have found some kind of a fast and intuitive workaround here, Keith.
Please have a look.
The idea is that you have a dummy [Cylinder.sculpt] which receives all the sculpting and holds the PoseMorph. I assume that you have a textured model, which might help besides the details of it, to locate the parts much better than on a cylinder.
The produced information is then transferred to the animated object [Cylinder.skin]
I had to take a bit of a break before I could look at this again…
Thanks for your interesting solution, which I have tried. Although it does update the sculpting process
in real time on the second mesh you are still having to work on the ‘dummy’ (or ‘proxy’) mesh in its
‘default’ or ‘unposed’ state. So it’s a bit of an improvement, but not quite what I am looking for.
In your example, the tube that you are sculpting remains upright in its original position. Unfortunately, if you
try the same thing with a Joint Rigged character you can only sculpt on the ‘dummy’ mesh in its ‘T’ pose. Your
sculpting actions are indeed updated onto your ‘follow’ mesh, (so you can see the results) but the position
and translation of your Sculpt actions is difficult to predict - and I find quite a challenge to get right on
a complex character.
I could perhaps train myself to work this way with some practice, but it’s a bit like trying to draw an accurate
portrait while looking at your subject through a distorting fairground mirror - not impossible, but just rather difficult!
If you look at the image below you will see that with the ‘Correction’ deformer I can sculpt directly on
the Joint Posed Mesh - in place. But - and this is the technical bit - you have to transfer the resulting
‘Correction Morph’ to the Pose Morph tag using the method I outlined in post #12.
I think I will stick with my original ‘Correction’ deformer method for the time being, as being able to sculpt
directly onto the mesh is the most accurate and artistically controllable method for me!
Perhaps I could streamline the transfer process with some Python scripting in due course… unless Maxon is
able to provide an update to resolve the issue we have both identified above.
I assume that you know this, since the Point Node is set to Local, that the object can be rotated and moved—without losing its point data, as it all relates to the object axis. But yes, another extra step. ;o) However, if a leg is in question, the whole object can be positioned parallel to this part. Easy to work then, from where I look at it.
This was certainly not intended to be a alternative, a far cry from that. It’s a workaround, and as the name said, it’s like taking a detour road.
When I work, I like to do directly what I have in mind, and not clicking through a list of stuff. Perhaps that is only me.
Yes, and again, a Sculpt level zero Lite version to work on details, to feed the PoseMorph would be already an excellent tool. Example: When I look at most of the Broadcast-Level VFX, I think that would really accelerate this kind of work.
I hope I have found some kind of a fast and intuitive workaround here, Keith.
Please have a look.
The idea is that you have a dummy [Cylinder.sculpt] which receives all the sculpting and holds the PoseMorph. I assume that you have a textured model, which might help besides the details of it, to locate the parts much better than on a cylinder.
The produced information is then transferred to the animated object [Cylinder.skin]
Perhaps then there will be a better solution than this, if you and others request this functionality.
I certainly keep pretty much any given question here in mind, and if I really have something to share I will add a post with an alternative. I’m certainly interested that everyone can work with the least amount of obstacles. That being said, the amount of possible combinations are nearly endless, and this case here is certainly an interesting mix. Two powerful procedural, and each tries to take over… kind off. Please submit a suggestion and describe the importance of it to have this available. The developers are very open minded about it, but they must get the communication from the artists. Thank you very much.
Thanks for looking into this issue. I followed the steps, but I get a double transform where by the correction tag is storing not just the points that where manipulated by sculpting, but also the points of the pose itself. When the Correction tag gets dragged into the Target the most is applied with the skin off. When the skin gets turned on the joint transforms on top of the correction tag which equals a double transform?
Thanks for any information. Since r18 has nothing to offer as a solution have you found any way around this?
Edit: It seems I did one single thing that caused this problem, I turned off the correction tag before the skin, this then stored the skin deformation into the correction tag. I needed to turn off the Skin first, then the tag. Another way is to make sure the freeze button is pressed before tuning off the correction tag.
I certainly have to see a scene file to understand. I have no idea what a Correction Tag is, the manual doesn’t either. Perhaps a Correction Deformer? Do you have dragged this one into the Target of the Pose Morph?
I guess it is the Correction Deformer. If so, make certain that the Correction Deformer is below the Skin Object.
If you drag the Correction Deformer into the Pose Morph, then yes, if both are are active and 100%, then the effect might double.
I’m always a little bit uncertain how much I can tell about R18 in this phase between announcement and release. Anyway, things will move much faster if everyone creates a suggestion. The top most requested features will certain have more attention.
Hi everyone,
This is an interesting thread for character rigging
and creating corrective shapes a la “The Art of Moving Points” ebook.
Are there any new developments on this issue for a quick pipeline creating corrective shapes?
[edit] I’ve been using the pose morph set to corrective and post deformer
and only using the regular move tool in point move to create the corrective shapes, not the sculpt tools.
But perhaps there is even a more effective method?
Leo
The idea or should I say problem, was not towards correcting shapes with the Sculpting Tool.
The problem was more, how to work with a sculpted model that has already been animated and needs a new change of sculpting.
To use it as a tool for pure character animation would make a problem to a crutch (support). If you are not working with sculpting to begin with, try to avoid this. The Correction Deformer is much better for this.
I see it only to often, in life as in CG/VFX, a kind of solved problem creates on the end some more problems. ;o)
