A new version of Cineversity has been launched. This legacy site and its tutorials will remain accessible for a limited transition period

Visit the New Cineversity
   
 
Substance Designer for C4D and Arnold
Posted: 27 June 2016 01:14 PM   [ Ignore ]  
Total Posts:  15
Joined  2012-12-07

Hi, really good tutorial, I was wondering, since I have Arnold Renderer, how could I use the Substance to C4D with Arnold? It doesnt seem a way to connect Substance Materials with the Arnold Shading Network. I did tried baking the materials from a cube, but had strange results (I forgot to add a Uvmapping tag, and also didnt knew where to connect the normal map)

Profile
 
 
Posted: 28 June 2016 03:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]  
Administrator
Avatar
Total Posts:  12043
Joined  2011-03-04

Hi Luchifer,

I have send yesterday an e-mail to Solid Angle. I will post if I get something to “share”. An e-mail to Allegorithmic is also on its way :o)

I’m afraid I have no answer to that so far. I can’t see any nodes in the network editor. Nor any drag an drop works, I search for the accidental options last night. With all the 3rd party renders I’m a little bit “behind”, as there are a few:
http://www.maxon.net/products/workflow-integration/render-engines.html
Yes, it is a long time that we have those, and even being part of the Maxwell beta phase a decade ago (as well the last few month helping to improve the REAL Flow forC4D “engine”), it is a little bit of work to keep up, with updates and 3rd party shaders for Arnold. I’m certainly not very deep into Arnold, but I’m working on it. :o)
https://forum.allegorithmic.com/index.php?topic=11968.msg52060#msg52060

It is a wide field especially when combinations are requested, where C4D is more the authoring platform or the management app for the pipeline. Substance Designer with Arnold, without telling you, “bake that stuff” as you mentioned, is so far not a discussed content on their websites or fora—AFAIK. But some sources tell that the Substance Designer and Arnold, demoed via Maya, should work in a similar way. No clue if that is true, I haven’t touched Maya since the ‘90s. My suspicion is that it is created for Substance Painterand not useable for the Substance Designer.

Those combinations (Substance and Arnold) create an exploding numbers in possibilities, so I hope there is some kind of understanding for the delay in finding out what could work.

Again, I try to get an information, or offer even to help with the development as beta tester, but more is currently not possible to my knowledge. Sorry about that.

All the best

 Signature 

Dr. Sassi V. Sassmannshausen Ph.D.
Cinema 4D Mentor since 2004
Maxon Master Trainer, VES, DCS

Photography For C4D Artists: 200 Free Tutorials.
https://www.youtube.com/user/DrSassiLA/playlists

NEW:

NEW: Cineversity [CV4]

Profile
 
 
Posted: 01 July 2016 06:58 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]  
Administrator
Avatar
Total Posts:  12043
Joined  2011-03-04

I got an initial reply from Substance, and they suggest to go with the baked textures, gamma correct if needed. As my link pointed in that direction [see above].

My suggestion was of course that a node in the Arnold Shader Network is expected. I guess more people have to write to them to show the need for that.

To keep the great content of Substance Designer ACTIVE in the whole pipeline has tremendous advantages of course.

In the moment I get an reply from Solid Angle, I will share it.

 Signature 

Dr. Sassi V. Sassmannshausen Ph.D.
Cinema 4D Mentor since 2004
Maxon Master Trainer, VES, DCS

Photography For C4D Artists: 200 Free Tutorials.
https://www.youtube.com/user/DrSassiLA/playlists

NEW:

NEW: Cineversity [CV4]

Profile
 
 
Posted: 06 July 2016 05:16 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]  
Administrator
Avatar
Total Posts:  12043
Joined  2011-03-04

So, after a longer support chit-chat with the great support of Allegorithmics, I got this, I hope it helps:
(So far I get it set up in Substance, but Arnold for C4D is not seeing it, I will update when)

(Note that the Standalone version of Substance Designer is needed here, it is not doable with the C4D plug-in alone.)

“For example, if you have a Substance that outputs base color, metal and roughness than this will not work with Arnold.
In this case, you could take the substance into Substance Designer, use the “BaseColor_Roughness_Metallic_converter” node to create the outputs need for Arnold.
You can see this in the attached image.”

https://www.amazon.com/clouddrive/share/6Wkit5GNQjI4Xb04eE7mCm0KQpd7iS55yNKnby6K0RC?ref_=cd_ph_share_link_copy

It would be nice to get your feedback to this workflow

The company Solid Angle hasn’t replied yet. I will share if it is solving the problem.

All the best

 Signature 

Dr. Sassi V. Sassmannshausen Ph.D.
Cinema 4D Mentor since 2004
Maxon Master Trainer, VES, DCS

Photography For C4D Artists: 200 Free Tutorials.
https://www.youtube.com/user/DrSassiLA/playlists

NEW:

NEW: Cineversity [CV4]

Profile
 
 
Posted: 07 July 2016 03:13 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]  
Total Posts:  15
Joined  2012-12-07

thank you, sorry It took me so late to answer, Im in the middle of a production, I’ll get back with feedback as soon as I can.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 07 July 2016 03:28 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]  
Administrator
Avatar
Total Posts:  12043
Joined  2011-03-04

Please, lucifer, take your time.
Productions first, of course!

I hope the information I got will work for your needs, I have to test this of course as well.

My best wishes for the current project!

 Signature 

Dr. Sassi V. Sassmannshausen Ph.D.
Cinema 4D Mentor since 2004
Maxon Master Trainer, VES, DCS

Photography For C4D Artists: 200 Free Tutorials.
https://www.youtube.com/user/DrSassiLA/playlists

NEW:

NEW: Cineversity [CV4]

Profile
 
 
Posted: 07 July 2016 04:54 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]  
Total Posts:  15
Joined  2012-12-07

Me again, amazon cloud charge me to put an image, so I used facebook

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10154368716516554&set=a.10152332434151554.1073741827.594246553&type=3&theater;
I just exported materials from SD into C4D and recreated what I need from the network, the diffuse is an EXR with a linearize node, and the greyscale images are just pngs (wich I believe shouldnt be color corrected). This is the Stone Brick 04 material from Substance Designer Database. The red one is just to see if my colorspace is linear.

I lost the procedural ability, but with some patience I can translate substance materials into my c4d content browser (by the way.. is there a way I can make a relative path for my textures?).

Im not really sure if this is the correct workflow, but I guess it works for my needs smile

Profile
 
 
Posted: 07 July 2016 04:55 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]  
Total Posts:  15
Joined  2012-12-07

the reason I didnt use the node BaseColor_Roughness_Metallic_converter is because I got lost in the SD network with too much maps to connect with and only four ports (Im new with SD)

Profile
 
 
Posted: 07 July 2016 02:41 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]  
Administrator
Avatar
Total Posts:  12043
Joined  2011-03-04

Hi luchifer,

First of all, I will move (edit, I have moved it) this to the Q&A forum, as it has nearly nothing to do anymore with the tutorial. Just housekeeping, I hope you don’t mind.

Everything needed to know about relative path is here:
https://help.maxon.net/#52276
and in the links given.
OR was the question based on Substance Designer (Import [rel] vs Linking [abs]), or even Arnold (this is the same as in C4D [see link above].

The main idea for a relative path is, that Cinema 4D knows where to look for those: As the absolute information is gone. The standard procedural is to have it in the Scene file folder inside a “tex” named folder.

You might be OK with “.png” files. I found them not efficient and slow. Keep in mind that one can linearize those if needed, but the data is based on an previously gamma based distribution (it is like stretching a certain part and compressing the other part). Gamma: Which follows perception and not technical needs. So, you have a lot of data in the middle and less where one might need them occasionally. There is no magically linearization and have an equally great representation of the material as if it was stored from the start in an linear “container”. (I just finished here on Cineversity a long discussion about banding. My tip, if possible, never use 8bit.ch! ;o)
. Open EXRs are naturally linearized, as they are float. To linearize them again, feels weird to say the least, as I don’t see your set up, it is set by default to linear input, if my version works as yours. I guess it slows it just down, if at all. If set to any other value you will get the wrong data. The beauty of Open EXR is (as any real floating point,[radiance/hdri is not!]) that you change values, store them and if you change them later back, they are pretty much the same. This is not true at all for any integer based (mostly gamma based) file format. Yes, they are sometimes smaller (integer) but it is not the only variable in the game. With each year of more CPU/GPU power, better networks, better prices for storage, this small advantages of 8bit stuff are less and less important. I would even say it is already today a bad idea to use this stuff all during production.
Kepp in mind that the Arnold Driver allows for half precision, which is a 16bit/floating point. Which means 18+ stops over middle gray and 1024 values per stop. Half means to be able to work in ACES, which is the new and current standard of the Academy. 8bit/ch has 256 steps for everything and is gamma distorted, which means nearly nothing. For data channels, 32bit/channel is mandatory anyway, hence the standard for C4D [never ever use the QuickTime EXR…]. Well. Just my two cents.… or read here:
http://www.openexr.com/TechnicalIntroduction.pdf

For rendered textures Arnold suggest .exr and .tx (with .tx only convertible on Win.)

Grayscale says nothing about its use. If they are image based or data based, that is a big difference. This doubt are not given with linear material from the start.

Yes, I’m not really deep into this application (SD) my self, and I have yet to find a good training source, so far the usual suspects in terms of training showed me nothing really that I would even remotely suggest here. But this morning I made it through 90 minutes of such stuff, without gaining really any more “substance” (sorry I couldn’t resist, pun intended! ). (Edit: finished that trainings course tonight without gaining really anything at all. I will search for more. I’m also not done with the SD support, somehow the suggestions work inside but not when I convert the material in Arnold…)

I hope we get what you need soon.

 Signature 

Dr. Sassi V. Sassmannshausen Ph.D.
Cinema 4D Mentor since 2004
Maxon Master Trainer, VES, DCS

Photography For C4D Artists: 200 Free Tutorials.
https://www.youtube.com/user/DrSassiLA/playlists

NEW:

NEW: Cineversity [CV4]

Profile
 
 
Posted: 08 July 2016 01:38 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]  
Total Posts:  15
Joined  2012-12-07

I followed a Maya Linear workflow with Arnold so I converted the grayscale pngs into tx files, and the exr I had to linearize with an srgb node because If I didnt It was blown out. Im sending you the dropbox project(Im not sure if im supposed to share the SD textures, but I guess is for educational purposes). Im pretty happy with the result so far, but I want to be sure if this is also a proper way to translate SD maps into Arnold. Im having a blast with this nice plugin, I cant wait to ask my work to purchase more seats (Octane was nice too, but we have unsupported quadra FX 3800)

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/mx0fxkxzh6ecof3/AABda2k8Du_xpzAcOsKfopWia?dl=0

edit.. I dont work in nothing fancy (academy or anything like that), I just like to follow the proper workflow… just in case.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 08 July 2016 02:52 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]  
Administrator
Avatar
Total Posts:  12043
Joined  2011-03-04

Hi lucifer,

Obviously the .tx are not only convertible on Win, it seems from the scene these files are also not working on my Mac. Well, it crashed my app, after giving me a render error. So, no further data on that. I will report that.

The Open EXR content looks really like it was gamma based. It is not really recognized at all. Something is wrong. So I checked the export and it needs an sRGB to Linear inside of Substance if you like to have all the quality that Substance obviously has. If you go over (mouse wise) the image in Substance, in the left lower corner you can see the integer as well the float numbers then as in 0.028, which indicates something very differentiated. I never would go ahead and do the translation later, keep things organized. So, please a sRGB to Linear node inside of Substance. Perhaps check with the support. I guess the highest precision is given in the way I suggest here. I tested it of course.

In floating point formats, images are linear. Since I guess that the conversion is one time in Substance but often in Arnold, that would make sense anyway, to fix it from the start.

There is nothing really fancy on the ACES way, it is just a large color space and linear. I mentioned it, as since years they try to get something that unites all. Color spaces allow during production to go in any direction without being clipped. You just keep the quality high, with integer stuff, the worse can happen that one chancel gets clipped and with that any change will change the color, as one channel isn’t coming back, simply put.

Please note that the Substance, so far I can see is producing values between 0 and 100% for the"texture/image based part, but in float precision! Which would be sufficient to be stored at 16bit/channel, integer, if no alteration happens, as in change of color space. But any data channel, as in Normal, would not be well represented in this way. As I get not tired to say, sRGB or REC709 is a delivery, but not a production format. This is sadly not understood in large areas. The pixel values are converted based on the color space. If something is not inside of this colorspace it becomes clipped. There is no “healing” from that clipping. Something that is missed in many tutorials who suggest that “convert it back and fore” with no penalty, which is just wrong. We go straight to the BT2100 or REC 2020 generation of material, and HDR-footage will be possible, I do not talk about the tone-mapping that is often misunderstood as HDRI. Any limitations in the footage then presented, will look like mud besides the new options. Something I talk about since years, but then again, people come with: we do it since ... Well, I can only inform that things become visible that weren’t visible on the screens before. So what you see is not what will be seen later. I try to make things a little bit more future proof here, but obviously there is a lot of old “knowledge” that prevents a success of my doing here.
At least eh data channels in Multi-pass have lead to an more and more use of linear based formats, as in Open EXR. When ever one notice sRGB or REC 709 in a current workflow, the alarm bells should ring. Hence my suggestion to fix the sRGB in Substance, and not in Arnold.

The image below show the simple way, I guess a deeper look into “functions” would allow for a better representation of the values, while going “float” before processing anything else”, perhaps then we might see wider scales of values. But this is already a little bit out of the scope what we can discuss here, after all we connect to C4D or deliver from it. Please check out the Substance forum, to get more precise information. I hope I could illuminate the problem area here, so the work inside of C4D will gain the best quality. After all, Arnold seems to ignore at least my support ticket, as well 3rd party and most C4D shaders (certainly to stay native and fast, no complains here!)

All the best

 Signature 

Dr. Sassi V. Sassmannshausen Ph.D.
Cinema 4D Mentor since 2004
Maxon Master Trainer, VES, DCS

Photography For C4D Artists: 200 Free Tutorials.
https://www.youtube.com/user/DrSassiLA/playlists

NEW:

NEW: Cineversity [CV4]

Profile