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Orderley Tangle
Posted: 06 September 2018 03:37 AM   [ Ignore ]  
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Joined  2018-05-13

Hello Sassi, I have found a YouTube video showing a very inspiring way to create an “orderley tangle” of triangles. This is exactly some of the models I want to create.

However it has been made with another program. I didn’t want to paste the link before asking. I can direct send you the link as I would love to know how to follow this in C4D.

As I am getting familiar with C4D I already know the first part of the video can be achieved with the tetrahedron primitive, followed by an inner extrude, then delete the faces. But then it has other techniques I would like you to see how this can be “translated” into C4D steps.

Can I paste the link here or send you direct?

Regards,
David

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Posted: 06 September 2018 11:57 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]  
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Hi David,

What video?  There are many option how people have build these.

Scene files can be attached in the forum as zip file. (Currently, we experience sometime a Mime type problem, hence why I use my server since a while, but I attach it now as well, see below)

Scene file
https://www.amazon.com/clouddrive/share/GpTQt2scjvBYVsmeICDKfOMyUiif3Sxh14Pg4QpIsdY

All the best

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CV2_r20_drs_18_MOot_01.c4d.zip  (File Size: 64KB - Downloads: 64)
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Dr. Sassi V. Sassmannshausen Ph.D.
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Posted: 06 September 2018 02:03 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]  
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P.S.: I never had to create one, so I had to understand what the target was.

I hope this set up comes closer, it is a simple adjustment of some parameter. I leave to you to explore those, it is all in the Cloner and the Tube. Anything else in the file is just for rendering purposes.

Scene file, screen shot:
https://www.amazon.com/clouddrive/share/Q11yO86JPTh9rbCn4U6EEUXfyXO6qtTs6qZcxPu97Q4

Enjoy

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Dr. Sassi V. Sassmannshausen Ph.D.
Cinema 4D Mentor since 2004
Maxon Master Trainer, VES, DCS

Photography For C4D Artists: 200 Free Tutorials.
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Posted: 06 September 2018 06:03 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]  
Total Posts:  98
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Your second one is it! Thank you.

I didn’t paste the video link as I mentioned it was made in another 3D program, so my asking first was through courtesy.

I would still like to share the link, direct with you if needed, as I want to know if C4D has some equivalent commands.

Regards,
David

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Posted: 06 September 2018 06:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]  
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Hi David,

You’re very welcome. Yes, the simplicity that the second one has made me happy. So simple and fast. This is where I gain momentum for my day.

Other application have other tools and a different mix of it. I was able to put the second one up in a few minutes. I guess that is fast enough wink

If you think there is something in this video that is important to you or something you want to apply…

Anyway, if there is any other question, please let me know.

Cheers

Edited

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Dr. Sassi V. Sassmannshausen Ph.D.
Cinema 4D Mentor since 2004
Maxon Master Trainer, VES, DCS

Photography For C4D Artists: 200 Free Tutorials.
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Posted: 07 September 2018 08:21 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]  
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Thank you for the update Sassi and I hope I didn’t cause any frustration earlier.

My desire to share the video link was because it shows modelling techniques that I have asked myself, “can this be done in C4D?” because it is a time saver, and not a feature that would be unique to a particular program. For example, is there a method to select all edges of the same length? I could spend time shift-clicking all the edges I want and setting selection, but this can take a lot of time. So I was hoping there is a way to do this in C4D but I cannot find it. Maybe the name of the function is not obvious - I have explored the Selection options in the menu. That is all I wanted to share with you with the video, as videos are clearer in illustrating a concept.

Please understand that my knowledge is still new to C4D, I am trying to learn not just modelling techniques but navigating the UI and all the great tools available, in the limited spare time I have in my day. My primary need for C4D is for its geometry, platonics and symmetry tools. That is my niche and passion.

I am a very visual person so observing how to reach an end design gives me inspiration to evolve and further develop that understanding. On that note I set myself the next challenge to make an orderly tangle using 6 squares, building on the technique you shared from the triangle version above.

I have linked my scene file below and attached a rendered version with added lights/materials so you can see my progress smile. As you will see I had to use 2 cloners to get the end result. One cloner creates 4 copies of the four sided tube and the second cloner creates 2 copies, then I rotated the second cloner 90 degrees.

Scene file: https://www.dropbox.com/s/1iebz4w9c4fmnm2/quad-tangle.c4d?dl=1

So this is my attempt but I would like to know if this can be done using a single cloner or some other possibly more efficient technique. It would be nice to set the angle and position of all 6 objects under a single controller or effect, if possible.

Yes I achieved the end result, but I love to see alternative ways to expand knowledge of the techniques available.

I appreciate all you have done for me here.

Regards,
David

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Posted: 07 September 2018 12:38 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]  
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Hi David,

Here is your file back, and thanks a lot for that. I love to see what you are doing. Yes, that is a very efficient solution. I’m not certain if the target to solve it with one Cloner would simplify the set up wink
https://www.amazon.com/clouddrive/share/z6Zfa8sWmj0fGVhhOTzYQhye9oXP0qwDcV9abjrt5Pz

What I tried to share was the idea, that the targets that you have, needs an analytical eye, and the exploration of this. For example, how the parts relate to each other, what is the inner mechanic or logic of it, and so on. This is something I would love to bottle up for you but if I could just wrap it in a tiny package, why would I have had spend many years to get there. (I hope I’m not sounding like bragging here, but I always [worked and] studied back in Germany over the course of 20 years. aAll after “normal school”: I got six different degrees, three Engineering titles for example.) Which leaves me with my mixture of Art, Science and Engineering. Again, I love to share, but there are limits. One is, that I can’t do a geometry and math class here, but that is the foundation of your current target. Hence my try yesterday to encourage exploration. As artists we have a very unique mix after a while. This mix is crucial to be based on many things. Each artist has to have a uniquely tailored collection to be successful with it. Well, I hope that sounds more useable.

Anyway, please continue to ask, but I really love to see what you have explored already of course.

A set of useful tools is here
https://www.cineversity.com/vidplaylist/cineversity_resources/natural_selection_overview
And a powerful selection function is here
https://www.cineversity.com/vidplaylist/cv-parametric_selection_tag/

Perhaps make a suggestion to MAXON why the length of an edge for selection filtering could be useful
https://www.maxon.net/en-us/support/suggestions/

As usual, the best solutions are given, from my point of view, are given when the development starts from the beginning. Often I’m presented with the problem in the middle, so patching a problem that might have been avoidable with a different approach from the start. Hence my question, what is the very earliest reason to have the edge length? I never had the need for it in over 22 years of using C4D, So I’m curious.

All the best

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Dr. Sassi V. Sassmannshausen Ph.D.
Cinema 4D Mentor since 2004
Maxon Master Trainer, VES, DCS

Photography For C4D Artists: 200 Free Tutorials.
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Posted: 07 September 2018 10:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]  
Total Posts:  98
Joined  2018-05-13

Hello Sassi,

Impressive - so you can do this with one cloner. I can see using the cube as the object to align the tubes, that’s good to know now. I can also see you transformed the bank in the cloner 25 degrees. I imagine to calculate this is the math and geometry rabbit hole, based on dimensions of the object(s) as a whole? I can see how your Art, Science and Engineering credentials are a powerful combination here. You are probably the closest thing to a human form of C4D! wink

Thank you for the link to the tools. I like the “Select Polygons” in the Natural Selection script. Very useful, at least for what I do.

To your last point, let us explore the edge length scenario further then. Please see the scene file in the link below and screenshots.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/aqbkp2ipgal210v/cv-selections.c4d?dl=1

I created a dodecahedron, untriangulated the polygons with create N-gons set (you may remember this tip smile). Then I performed a Subdivide to create the additional edges on each pentagonal face. Then in Point mode I manually selected all the points in the center of each polygon (related to this edges discussion, is there a quicker way to select all these center points in one go other than shift-clicking and rotating around the object?)

So, with all center points selected I switch to the scale tool and drag so that the points are pulled in, creating the object in the scene file and screenshots. I now wish to select all edges that are on the inside of each original pentagonal face. I have highlighted one of the edges in the first screenshot. We have 5 inside edges in each face, giving 60 inside edges to select. So if there was a command or shortcut to “select all edges of the same length” all these inner edges would be selected on the whole object in one operation, to which I could apply a bevel, for example. I hope this explains my thoughts…

Finally, while I was preparing the scene file what would be the correct procedure to further divide each pentagonal face as marked with orange lines in the second screenshot. I played with the Mesh > Commands > Triangulate and it looks like it did the trick but want to check this is right.

Many thanks,
David

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Posted: 07 September 2018 11:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]  
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Hi David,

The relationship of the angle, size of the frames and rotation is an interactive puzzle. You really need to play with it a few minutes to see the consequences. Once you have a good command on such, the final set up crystalizes. If not, something has not been acknowledged. Hence my request to explore. There are often sources that tells “do this, do that” and leave the inner logic and the information flow out. But that is the heart of it. These shapes have meaning, as you know, and the inner mechanic can be seen as a symbol for relations ships.

The first seconds I show the manual way, and then the Phong Break Selection
https://www.amazon.com/clouddrive/share/fU31Ap4zhIHsZRmffnq71GWGkUI0xPXaf76xvi3nIY

To select these edges, use the Select>Phong Break Selection [U~N], have a look at the clip. It might need a few minutes to feel comfortable. To inverse the selection that is given [U~I] Which means, just in case, press u then without doing anything else the I (inverse).

Triangulate could be the way, but also if the pentagon selection is active, you could use the Mesh> Create Tools> Edge Cut [M~F].

It mostly boils down to know the basics wink right?

Enjoy the exploration.

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Dr. Sassi V. Sassmannshausen Ph.D.
Cinema 4D Mentor since 2004
Maxon Master Trainer, VES, DCS

Photography For C4D Artists: 200 Free Tutorials.
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Posted: 08 September 2018 03:55 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]  
Total Posts:  98
Joined  2018-05-13

Basics are relative to one’s skills/experience smile

Interesting to see the difference in subdivisions. The dodeca on the left was first Subdivided then Triangulated. The dodeca on the right was Edge Cut first then Subdivided. Of course it depends on the look one is searching.

Time for a glass of wine and further exploration. Enjoy your weekend Sassi.

Regards,
David

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Posted: 08 September 2018 12:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]  
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Hi David,

Yes, the options are nice, aren’t they?

I say that since many years: I consider pretty much anything in the manual Basics.

The magic starts by combining the basics, there is not so much more to it. One can’t combine what one doesn’t know. Allow me a short story:

In the early ‘90s one of my first tasks as design-lead and office manager was to connect the CAD team with the architect-team. So I learned first our CAD system Allplan, then bought my own Archicad for my own use, to communicate this to the architects. I noticed that every fifth time I asked the CAD people what is that symbol on the screen, what is that check box, etc, they didn’t know. I installed a piggy bank for each time they didn’t know. After that things went much smoother, as they got more alert, to really started to look at the interface and read what each part was. A few month later after we had all architects (me included) through a Nemetschek seminar, I tought the CAD people a little bit architecture basics, and from that point on, the CAD-department had no idle minute at all anymore, we added even a third workstation to the team. We increased the productivity enormously. I would say that nothing beyond the pure basic was added, but it worked nicely. I was able to push in a short time 18 of my projects through that office with a value of a quarter billion, which was back then a lot. We all benefited from that. A great time.

I have not stopped putting attention to the basics, and I read often starter level stuff along the feature film pipeline. Filling the gaps. We all have them and they work like black holes. Forever! … if not eliminated. It has served me well over the past decades and I received many awards for my films. The most deadly word in our artistic and engineering business is the expression “I know that”. I have a good idea what I don’t know, to mention the science part as well.

Back to C4D, most things can be solved with the basics, but there is a misconception, that complex and impressive things need to be learned to get there, it is all in the basics.

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Dr. Sassi V. Sassmannshausen Ph.D.
Cinema 4D Mentor since 2004
Maxon Master Trainer, VES, DCS

Photography For C4D Artists: 200 Free Tutorials.
https://www.youtube.com/user/DrSassiLA/playlists

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